What would a modern (i.e., based on cognitive science) constructed language look like?
от yyaann, 29 мая 2016 г.
Сообщений: 34
Язык: English
Bemused (Показать профиль) 30 мая 2016 г., 12:56:43
Alkanadi:Sorry you missed the joke.Bemused:Yah, or he could have done this:Alkanadi:For example he could have made:erinja:Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound...Or, he could of made them with two syllables.
Different vowel endings;
- me (I/me), vu (you), ni (we)
Two syllable words;
- ilu (he), elu (she), olu (it)
Mimi, Lili, Vivi, Nini, ect...
Then if people are still having a hard time hearing:
Mimimi, Lilili, Vivivi, Ninini, ect...
Or to be super extra clear, he could have added sign language when speaking, and special symbols for writing:
!Mi, @Li, #Vi, $Ni, ect...
I didn't come up with the examples I gave.
Nor was the idea of making the pronouns more easily distinguishable original.
A little over a hundred years ago a commitee suggested these changes (among others) to Esperanto.
Of course they were told to bugger off and stop trying to mess with something that was already "good enough".
Result: Ido
![ridulo.gif](/images/smileys/ridulo.gif)
robbkvasnak (Показать профиль) 30 мая 2016 г., 16:31:02
My first experience with a large number of people from different language backgrounds was in Luxemburg. When I entered the kongresejo I at first thought a lot of people were speaking their own language - from the accent. But then after listening a few minutes I understood what they were saying. It was a very mojosa momento for me, really. It sort of blew my mind.
bartlett22183 (Показать профиль) 30 мая 2016 г., 18:46:10
sudanglo:Of course, there is little redundancy in the contrast between mi estas and ni estas, nor between mi estas and mi estis.Yes, there is a legitimate matter of redundancy. Several years ago I downloaded a computer course for Esperanto, but with my elderly hearing I literally could not distinguish between 'mi estas' and 'ni estas' in speech. I could not, as well as other similar distinctions. Obviously in writing it was simple. I think that there is a genuine difference between spoken and written language forms, and we need to be aware of these. In the spoken forms of language, context may be crucially important. (Some phrases spoken in isolation may be literally unintelligible to some of us with old hearing.)
But how often would a sentence or utterance consists of just such short phrases where it isn't self evident from context who or what time is being referred to?
Reduncy can be introduced by the rest of the sentence.
{trim}
ludomastro (Показать профиль) 30 мая 2016 г., 19:19:20
bartlett22183:Yes, there is a legitimate matter of redundancy. Several years ago I downloaded a computer course for Esperanto, but with my elderly hearing I literally could not distinguish between 'mi estas' and 'ni estas' in speech. I could not, as well as other similar distinctions. Obviously in writing it was simple. I think that there is a genuine difference between spoken and written language forms, and we need to be aware of these. In the spoken forms of language, context may be crucially important. (Some phrases spoken in isolation may be literally unintelligible to some of us with old hearing.)Indeed. There have been some Duolingo hearing exercises that literally make no sense at all to me. I would imagine that in a spoken conversation, that I would have to ask for help now and then.
erinja (Показать профиль) 30 мая 2016 г., 19:47:35
ludomastro:Indeed. There have been some Duolingo hearing exercises that literally make no sense at all to me. I would imagine that in a spoken conversation, that I would have to ask for help now and then.Real life is easier than a duolingo exercise because you usually benefit from context. In real life, if someone is talking about her solo trip to Mexico, and she says "Mi iris lunde", you have no doubt that it is "mi" and not "ni" because this whole trip has been about herself. In a Duolingo exercise, you have no context to tell you whether "mi" or "ni" is more likely. My Esperanto is excellent and sometimes when my husband plays one of those Duolingo exercises for me, I am not sure.
Alkanadi (Показать профиль) 31 мая 2016 г., 6:47:25
ludomastro:Indeed. There have been some Duolingo hearing exercises that literally make no sense at all to me. I would imagine that in a spoken conversation, that I would have to ask for help now and then.I used to replay the audio over and over again. It didn't sound like anything intelligible. They have either improved the audio since then, or I am now accustomed to understanding spoken Esperanto.
ludomastro (Показать профиль) 31 мая 2016 г., 12:27:17
erinja:Good to know that it's not just me. Thanks.ludomastro:Indeed. There have been some Duolingo hearing exercises that literally make no sense at all to me. I would imagine that in a spoken conversation, that I would have to ask for help now and then.Real life is easier than a duolingo exercise because you usually benefit from context. In real life, if someone is talking about her solo trip to Mexico, and she says "Mi iris lunde", you have no doubt that it is "mi" and not "ni" because this whole trip has been about herself. In a Duolingo exercise, you have no context to tell you whether "mi" or "ni" is more likely. My Esperanto is excellent and sometimes when my husband plays one of those Duolingo exercises for me, I am not sure.
bartlett22183 (Показать профиль) 31 мая 2016 г., 19:07:52
Vestitor (Показать профиль) 31 мая 2016 г., 19:36:27
The 'mi/ni' thing Erinja mentioned at the start of the thread is one that tripped me up in listening (and still does now and again). It may be manageable from context in larger sentences, but in the short sentences for learning it is a hindrance. But this is just how it is. English is also riddled with inconsistencies and issues, but it is doing fine.
I don't think the cognitive scientists will design a 'perfect' constructed language. The tiresome technocrats need to step away for once and admit that some things can't be perfected; especially when it is a fluid thing that will be affected by all kinds of variables in the real world.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 1 июня 2016 г., 12:02:20
The closeness of mi and ni, and estis and estas, hasn't yet proved to be a problem in practice.
Should the circumstances arise where the distinction becomes critical and the existing forms cause some difficulty it can be anticipated that a solution will spontaneously arise.
This might simply be an emphasis, such as shifting the accent on the syllables so that estas becomes estas, rather than estas, or saying ni (plural noun) to distinguish it from mi.
In English we say N for naughty and M for mother when spelling over the telephone, rather than inventing new letter names. And in aircraft traffic control we say 'niner' for nine to distinguish it from five, which recognizably preserves the original number name.
But usually, in Esperanto as in English, either the konteksto or the kunteksto will provide a clue to any misheard form.