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What would a modern (i.e., based on cognitive science) constructed language look like?

de yyaann, 29 mai 2016

Messages : 34

Langue: English

yyaann (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 02:46:44

In this article, the author argues that Esperanto is probably suboptimal from the perspective of cognitive sciences due to its lack of redundancy in grammar. Meanwhile, "natural" languages would also fail the test due to too much redundancy.

http://www.cogsci.nl/blog/what-would-a-modern-cons...

morico (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 06:28:37

The redundancy in grammar is no good for international language because that is increasing the time of learning.
Esperanto is the constructed language who is successfull because its qualities are great

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 06:41:52

Thanks for sharing the article.
Now consider the Esperanto counterpart: mi estas and li estas. These phrases differ only by a single letter, and are therefore more difficult to tell apart.
OMG. How can we tell the difference between these words? On a serious note, it might be harder to hear the difference but who cares. Adding redundancy, adds annoyance.
Only common verbs should be irregular, as is actually the case in most languages.
No thanks.

sudanglo (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 11:57:29

Of course, there is little redundancy in the contrast between mi estas and ni estas, nor between mi estas and mi estis.

But how often would a sentence or utterance consists of just such short phrases where it isn't self evident from context who or what time is being referred to?

Reduncy can be introduced by the rest of the sentence.

Mi estas anglo- unlikely to be estis anglo without some further explanation and can't be misconstrued as ni estas anglo, because it would have to be ni estas angloj.

In any case there are often words that in Esperanto (as in other languages) that differ by just one letter and this doesn't seem to cause much difficulty.

Ĉu vi batis la bebon?
Ĉu vi banis la bebon?

In what context would each of these sentences be equally plausible?

dbob (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 18:05:50

sudanglo:Ĉu vi batis la bebon?
Ĉu vi banis la bebon?

In what context would each of these sentences be equally plausible?
Not sure, but I'm certain that no matter what verb, the outcome would be disastrous for the baby if Freddy Krueger is involved.
I agree that context is vital.

erinja (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 20:09:59

The article isn't very well researched. Chinese doesn't inflect verbs by person and somehow more than a billion people manage to get by just fine.

I think Esperanto has a fine amount of redundancy. Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound, but this is really minor and you can always add a word if you feel you weren't understood ( "ni ambaux" versus a simple "ni" to distinguish from "mi", for example).

The agreement in -j endings also adds redundancy.

nornen (Voir le profil) 29 mai 2016 20:17:32

erinja:The article isn't very well researched. Chinese doesn't inflect verbs by person and somehow more than a billion people manage to get by just fine.

I think Esperanto has a fine amount of redundancy. Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound, but this is really minor and you can always add a word if you feel you weren't understood ( "ni ambaux" versus a simple "ni" to distinguish from "mi", for example).

The agreement in -j endings also adds redundancy.
I agree. Very little or no research at all. Many languages don't inflect for person (Chinese, Japanese, Norwegian, Danish, etc). Many languages don't even have a verb for "esti". Many other languages do inflect for person, but they drop the pronoun -> again no redundancy.
Because there is no conjugation, there is also no redundancy. The verb indicates when something is done: estas for the present, and estis for the past; and the personal pronoun indicates the doer.
Just a heap of balderdash. "There is no conjugation" vs "the verb indicates when something is done". The "doer"... What does "mi" do in "Mi estas anglo." or "Mi estas nova"...

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 30 mai 2016 07:05:24

erinja:Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound...
Or, he could of made them with two syllables.

Bemused (Voir le profil) 30 mai 2016 07:28:50

Alkanadi:
erinja:Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound...
Or, he could of made them with two syllables.
For example he could have made:

Different vowel endings;
- me (I/me), vu (you), ni (we)

Two syllable words;
- ilu (he), elu (she), olu (it)

okulumo.gif

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 30 mai 2016 08:01:00

Bemused:
Alkanadi:
erinja:Perhaps Zamenhof would have done well to make the pronouns so they didn't all end with the same vowel sound...
Or, he could of made them with two syllables.
For example he could have made:

Different vowel endings;
- me (I/me), vu (you), ni (we)

Two syllable words;
- ilu (he), elu (she), olu (it)

okulumo.gif
Yah, or he could have done this:
Mimi, Lili, Vivi, Nini, ect...

Then if people are still having a hard time hearing:
Mimimi, Lilili, Vivivi, Ninini, ect...

Or to be super extra clear, he could have added sign language when speaking, and special symbols for writing:
!Mi, @Li, #Vi, $Ni, ect...

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