הודעות: 7
שפה: English
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 9 ביוני 2016, 23:32:11
In the Esperanto forums I just came across a sentence, a question, constructed without ĉu, but with the obligatory question mark at the end:
Do, estas la nova versio plibona ol la 1987 kopio?
I read and understood it as a question (the structure so resembles English anyway), but then I wondered if it is strictly 'correct'? Is it fine for a question to be constructed that way in written Esperanto? Is Ĉu absolutely necessary when the question mark is there? Ĉu is of course beneficial in speech where intonation and word order might obscure a question.
I just wondered what leeway there is in writing, or perhaps even speaking, informally?
Forgive me if this stinks of beginner ignorance!
erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 9 ביוני 2016, 23:54:27
Asking without "cxu" is normally taken to mean confirming something that you think you already know, similar to saying "You live here?" (You really think the person lives here but you are trying to confirm this) rather than "Do you live here?" in English.
I might say to someone "Vi jam mangxis?" if I think they already ate and I am confirming it. But if it's just a straight off, ordinary question, even in a very informal setting, it would definitely be "Cxu vi jam mangxis?"
nornen (הצגת פרופיל) 10 ביוני 2016, 00:34:49
The usage of cxu is not covered in the Fundamenta Gramatiko.
In the Ekzercaro and the Universala Vortaro its lemma reads:
ĉu est-ce que | whether | ob | ли, развѣ | czy.And not maybe "marks a question".
PMEG states that it is OK to omit it when the question is elliptical, as in "Viandon?" or "Ne vere?"
In Z's works we find instances of complete sentences lacking cxu but with a question mark at the end:
“Tio ĉi do estas la fingringo?”From this I conclude, that it is not an error. Or at least you don't break some fundamental rule of Esperanto's grammar. I don't know if all of Z's questions without cxu (and without ki-word) fall in erinja's category of searching confirmation of something already known.
“Kaj vi volas viandon?”
The problem with intonation, word order or other features to mark a question is that the intonations and word orders for questions vary a lot between languages. And as there is no defined intonational pattern or word order for questions in Esperanto, the listener might not be able to identify an utterance as a question. So I would say, it is better to use cxu and not rely on intonation or word order. With cxu you will always be on the safe side.
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 10 ביוני 2016, 08:15:43
My advice is not to omit it at the beginning of a question, even though our tone and the context may well enable us to be understood, if we forget to use it.
erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 10 ביוני 2016, 23:47:49
This particular example sentence had problems with word choice that pointed to English - but starting out with "estas", just like in English we'd switch the order of "is" to ask a question (He is ready. Is he ready?), that was a red flag. Other than that, there was nothing about the sentence's word order that pointed to English.
I used to correct lessons for Ana Pana for English and French speakers. A good student could be from anywhere, but a student who made a lot of mistakes was usually an obvious English or French speaker, based on what mistakes they made. Much more word choice than word order, though.
vejktoro (הצגת פרופיל) 11 ביוני 2016, 04:03:00
nornen:there is no defined intonational pattern or word order for questions in Esperanto, the listener might not be able to identify an utterance as a question. So I would say, it is better to use cxu and not rely on intonation or word order. With cxu you will always be on the safe side.Exactly, just say 'cxu'. In writing you might get away with a question mark, but to speak without the question word is assuming too much... it ain't hard. Just a syllable.
As far as Modern English goes, only a limited number of verbs can change order to make a question. The Auxiliary,'do' fills the slot once occupied in middle English by the inverted verb. French on the other hand is great at VSO questions - as is Esperanto - if ya says "cxu".
Why question this?
And if you must, please cxuus!
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 11 ביוני 2016, 10:37:05
Do, estas la nova versio plibona ol la 1987 kopio?Do la nova versio estas pli bona ol la 1987-a eldono?
Obviously in written text you can get away with leaving off a ĉu. And in speech you can add a ĉu at the end.
Do la nova versio estas pli bona ol la 1987-a eldono, ĉu?
My suspicion would be that in informal conversation the context would make it apparent that a ĉu-less form was intended as a question.
As far as I know sentence melody in ĉu-less questions in Esperanto has not been studied.
For what it is worth, in French a statement form is often used as a question, but I have never experienced any problem in understanding examples of this when watching French TV.
I am not sure how I do this. Maybe I've learnt what melody is used, maybe I see it from the actor's face, maybe it is obvious from context.
Kafon aŭ teon? said when offering to get someone a drink seems more than enough.
However if you think you are risking misunderstanding you can always say ĉu (vi preferus) kafon aŭ teon.