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Tio vs tiu

de Alkanadi, 14 juin 2016

Messages : 18

Langue: English

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 21 juin 2016 10:29:00

Why does this sentence use tiu? I would of thought that it should be tio.

Diable! Diru al mi. Kio estas tiu mistero?

erinja (Voir le profil) 21 juin 2016 13:51:44

Alkanadi:Why does this sentence use tiu? I would of thought that it should be tio.

Diable! Diru al mi. Kio estas tiu mistero?
RiotNrrd:Tio answers what?, whereas tiu answers which?

Both can stand on their own, but if you're going to immediately name the thing you're pointing at (i.e., that X), then you must use tiu, because if you use tio you'll have an o-vorto modifying another o-vorto, which is not allowed.

Tio estas la plej taŭga loko.
Tiu loko estas la plej taŭga.

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 22 juin 2016 07:57:13

erinja:
RiotNrrd:Tio answers what?, whereas tiu answers which?
Out of all the mysteries, which mystery is this?
Kio estas tiu mistero?

Doesn't it make more sense to use tio.

Matthieu (Voir le profil) 22 juin 2016 08:49:38

Alkanadi:
erinja:
RiotNrrd:Tio answers what?, whereas tiu answers which?
Out of all the mysteries, which mystery is this?
Kio estas tiu mistero?

Doesn't it make more sense to use tio.
It does not, "tio mistero" is ungrammatical. Basically you can consider that "tio" behaves like a noun and "tiu" like an adjective.

RiotNrrd (Voir le profil) 22 juin 2016 20:06:33

Alkanadi:
erinja:
RiotNrrd:Tio answers what?, whereas tiu answers which?
Out of all the mysteries, which mystery is this?
Kio estas tiu mistero?

Doesn't it make more sense to use tio.
Only reading the first sentence of a post will often lead you to miss information that may be touched upon further in. Let me reproduce the section you obviously skipped:

If you're going to immediately name the thing you're pointing at (i.e., that X), then you must use tiu, because if you use tio you'll have an o-vorto modifying another o-vorto, which is not allowed.

Alkanadi (Voir le profil) 23 juin 2016 07:39:36

RiotNrrd:If you're going to immediately name the thing you're pointing at (i.e., that X), then you must use tiu, because if you use tio you'll have an o-vorto modifying another o-vorto, which is not allowed.
I read that previously but it isn't sinking it.

erinja (Voir le profil) 23 juin 2016 13:52:58

Was that a typo for "isn't sinking in" or is it some kind of idiom I have never heard, indicating that you don't understand that you need to follow the rules of grammar, and that "a noun can't describe a noun, therefore "tio" can't possibly describe a noun" is a rule in Esperanto?

RiotNrrd (Voir le profil) 23 juin 2016 16:33:21

Alkanadi:I read that previously but it isn't sinking it.
Fair enough.

Whenever you are tempted to say tio [noun], change tio to tiu. Always. Then you will be grammatically correct. Tio is an o-vorto, and nouns are o-vortoj, and you just can't put the two together. If you break them apart, though, then you can have both of them in the same sentence.

This is why the following sentences are structured the way they are, even though they mean basically the same thing:

Tio estas la plej taŭga loko.
Tiu loko estas la plej taŭga.

I can't say tio loko, because of the two-o-vortoj rule. Therefore even though all I'm really doing is rearranging the words a bit, I have to change it to tiu loko.

I didn't mention it earlier, but there is one other convention with tiu. Always use tiu when referring to a person, rather than tio. Tio is for use with objects, and while people are indeed technically objects, they don't tend to care for that being pointed out.

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