Seems like this thread has gotten really off-topic. :/

Cause of eternal beginners

Maybe there is no 'fruitful' balance (one side overbalance) between usefulness (rational expectations) and emotional enthusiasm (non-rational). In my opinion, if someones only focus on usefulness (1) this will hinder to build up emotional enthusiasm means fascination on matter (conlang) itself. In result someones will cruise around further like some eternal beginner.

Regarding Esperanto hobby, personaly I see PMEG that (initial) main ressource to build up emotional enthusiasm. For sure in the beginning it will need good dictionary to clear the fog but the more vocabulary someones can handle the more someones will get emotional bindings for i.e. Esperanto conlang.

(1) i.e. 'I will be capable to apply some foreign language'.

spreecamper:Cause of eternal beginners

Maybe there is no 'fruitful' balance (one side overbalance) between usefulness (rational expectations) and emotional enthusiasm (non-rational). In my opinion, if someones only focus on usefulness (1) this will hinder to build up emotional enthusiasm means fascination on matter (conlang) itself. In result someones will cruise around further like some eternal beginner.

Regarding Esperanto hobby, personaly I see PMEG that (initial) main ressource to build up emotional enthusiasm. For sure in the beginning it will need good dictionary to clear the fog but the more vocabulary someones can handle the more someones will get emotional bindings for i.e. Esperanto conlang.

(1) i.e. 'I will be capable to apply some foreign language'.

This may seem like climbing up the rough side of the mountain, but honestly, AFTER THE FIRST STAGE OF LEARNING THE BASIC GRAMMAR AND STRUCTURE (got to put in that disclaimer), I don't think there is any substitute for diving right in and actually using the language). Having discussions that surround a theme or a topic (be they in writing or in conversation) enables people to learn the vocabulary surrounding that topic. Much of that will extend to other topics as well---and along the way, language skills start to stick.

We are rich in resources to make the initial learning phase as painless as possible, and there is no reason for an individual to limit himself to just one method or another. It's all the same language, regardless of how one acquires it. Cresswell's Teach Yourself Esperanto book was fantastic--regrettably, it's out of print, but used copies are still available, and well worth it--mine is in pieces now, but I keep it around for reference and to look at various sections at odd moments. Cresswell gave good, clear explanations of how to use the language (for example, saying "antaux OL" and "post KIAM" for before verbal expressions). The Step By Step In Esperanto book by Montagu C. Butler is another of my prized Esperanto possessions as it has in-depth explanations and plenty of meaty examples. The Duolingo app is proving to be tremendous for our movement, as it is easily accessible and has a game-like quality to it and is entertaining. The rather recent Richardson book Esperanto is excellent for its examples and the fictitious letter exchange between "Barbro Kaj Eriko" and other readings...and I could go on. These resources all have something valuable to offer, and again, there is no reason to limit oneself to just one or even two resources. So if the water seems "muddy" in one place, there are other wells to drink from.

I believe we have a crying need in our movement for more intermediate Esperanto materials, particularly workbook-style exercises and guided prose. But ultimately, if you don't want to remain an eternal beginner, then you have to push yourself past the beginning stages and get in there and try your skills---you'll never learn to swim if you don't eventually get out of the boat.

Polaris:But ultimately, if you don't want to remain an eternal beginner, then you have to push yourself past the beginning stages and get in there and try your skills---you'll never learn to swim if you don't eventually get out of the boat.

'... you'll never learn to swim if you don't eventually get out of the boat ...' Could this mean that someones needs to put itselves into position of some dialogue partner as fast as possible? I mean to speak language should be final goal.

I think clozes of dialogue texts will help a lot to overcome initial step of being eternal beginner. There exists tools which can automaticaly create clozes.

What does 'guided prose' mean? Could you give example?

To go back to people not finishing courses: I don't think this is necessarily a case of the course failing. I don't think I've ever finished a language course in my life... simply because I stop using them once I reach a high enough level to begin interacting with native/fluent speakers and media without them. I think in most cases once you get the basics, it's best to just jump in. And the free Esperanto course that is available online is very good, if you essentially use Lernu as a Textbook and Duolingo as a workbook.

spreecamper:

Polaris:But ultimately, if you don't want to remain an eternal beginner, then you have to push yourself past the beginning stages and get in there and try your skills---you'll never learn to swim if you don't eventually get out of the boat.

'... you'll never learn to swim if you don't eventually get out of the boat ...' Could this mean that someones needs to put itselves into position of some dialogue partner as fast as possible? I mean to speak language should be final goal.

I think clozes of dialogue texts will help a lot to overcome initial step of being eternal beginner. There exists tools which can automaticaly create clozes.

What does 'guided prose' mean? Could you give example?

Cloze exercises are excellent for practicing discrete points of grammar--and there IS a place for that, as well as for other grammar practice activities. Grammar is one major aspect of any language, but it is not the only aspect. One major mistake that leads to remaining a perpetual beginner is that of thinking that studying the grammar is all there is to it. It IS important, but if all you ever do is study grammar, you'll get stuck there.

What I mean by pushing past the beginning stages and what I said about "getting out of the boat", so to speak, is authentic language use in varied modalities: reading (short stories, articles, books) and writing (answering forum posts is a good place to start), and actual conversations (particularly around a theme or a topic when you can look up new words you need on the spot). By guided prose, I'm referring to authentic (or at least non-sheltered language) texts that have annotations or notes off to the side or down at the bottom to help you along.

Polaris:...pushing past the beginning stages...

Most people don't have the will power to push past that stage. They need to be pulled. Otherwise Esperanto will just be a language for the elite learners.

Polaris:By guided prose, I'm referring to authentic (or at least non-sheltered language) texts that have annotations or notes off to the side or down at the bottom to help you along.

Ah, okay, thanks, I understand. I have used that kind of learning materials (Spotlight Verlag) for other languages than E-o.

Alkanadi:

Polaris:...pushing past the beginning stages...

Most people don't have the will power to push past that stage. They need to be pulled. Otherwise Esperanto will just be a language for the elite learners.

In all sincerity, Alkanadi, at this point in time, that pretty well describes the situation. The majority of the Esperantists who actually develop their skills to a workable level that will allow any kind of in-depth discussion are people who have good autodidactic skills, and therefore can learn on their own. Look around the room at the next local Esperanto club meeting you attend, identify the people who can actually have a meaty conversation, and find out how they learned---did ANY of them pick up their Esperanto in a classroom setting with a teacher who guided them to fluency? Nearly every one of them (in all likelihood) did it pretty well on their own, possibly ecclectically choosing the learning aides or programs that worked for them.

Alkanadi:

Polaris:...pushing past the beginning stages...

Most people don't have the will power to push past that stage. They need to be pulled. Otherwise Esperanto will just be a language for the elite learners.

In all sincerity, Alkanadi, at this point in time, that pretty well describes the situation. The majority of the Esperantists who actually develop their skills to a workable level that will allow any kind of in-depth discussion are people who have good autodidactic skills, and therefore can learn on their own. Look around the room at the next local Esperanto club meeting you attend, identify the people who can actually have a meaty conversation, and find out how they learned---did ANY of them pick up their Esperanto in a classroom setting with a teacher who guided them to fluency? Nearly every one of them (in all likelihood) did it pretty well on their own, possibly eclectically selecting the learning aides or programs that worked for them.