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What's the difference between 'Ĉu mi povus' and 'Ĉu mi povas'

av apriliss, 29 juni 2016

Meddelanden: 9

Språk: English

apriliss (Visa profilen) 29 juni 2016 22:07:29

Sorry for asking pretty basic questions,
But I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Ĉu mi povus havi la panon?
Ĉu mi povas havi la panon?

And also,

Se mi estus birdo, mi povus flugi en la ĉielon.
Se ĝi estas birdo, ĝi povas flugi en la ĉielon.

Don't they mean same things basically? lango.gif

Vestitor (Visa profilen) 29 juni 2016 23:11:31

apriliss:Sorry for asking pretty basic questions,
But I'm having a hard time understanding this.

Ĉu mi povus havi la panon? = Could I have the bread.
Ĉu mi povas havi la panon? = Can I have the bread.

And also,

Se mi estus birdo, mi povus flugi en la ĉielon. = If I were a bird I could fly in the sky
Se ĝi estas birdo, ĝi povas flugi en la ĉielon. = If it is a bird it can fly in the sky

Don't they mean same things basically? lango.gif

RiotNrrd (Visa profilen) 29 juni 2016 23:40:25

(Pano = bread)

Vestitor (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 00:43:29

RiotNrrd:(Pano = bread)
You're right. I must be having one of those moments when you see 'n', but think its 't'...

Time for an edit.

Alkanadi (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 08:48:56

Yah. It basically means the same thing.

estas = is
estus = could be

povas = is currently possible
povus = could be possible under certain conditions

Would it be possible to have the bread?
Ĉu mi povus havi la panon?

Is it possible to have the bread?
Ĉu mi povas havi la panon?

erinja (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 14:50:14

They are not basically the same thing at all.

If it's asking for something, then "cxu mi povus" is being polite and asking permission and "cxu mi povas" is asking if you are actually able to have something, capable of having it.

In other circumstances, the -us form is often indicating something counterfactual. A bird can fly. A person can't fly. Therefore a bird "povas flugi" (can fly). A person would have to say, mi povUS flugi, se mi estus birdo (I COULD fly if I were a bird -- but understood through context, I'm not a bird, so I can't fly).

If we change to a slightly different situation, let's say I'm inviting some people to a party and I say to my co-host, "Ludoviko povus veni" (Ludovik could come). This implies that we haven't invited him but we could invite him and perhaps he will come. We do not know if he can come or not and we haven't even asked him yet so at present he is not coming.

If I say "Ludoviko povas veni" (Ludovik can come), that implies that I have already invited him and he has already said yes, he will come.

Abeneezer (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 15:25:45

Vestitor:
Se ĝi estas birdo, ĝi povas flugi en la ĉielon. = If it is a bird it can fly into the sky
Very minor nitpick, but wouldn't it be like this due to the -n?

opalo (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 17:56:22

The word povi is vague in the same way that the English word can is vague. It can refer to capability, permission, and possibility, although capability is the primary meaning.

So Ĉu mi povas...? can mean "Am I capable of...?" (Ĉu mi kapablas...?) or "May I...?" (Ĉu mi rajtas...?) or "Is it possible that I...?" (Ĉu eblas ke mi...?)

In the polite English formula "Could I borrow your umbrella?" there is, I think, an unspoken condition: "Could I borrow your umbrella without inconveniencing you?" It seems to me that the use of the conditional form in Ĉu mi povus uzi vian ombrelon? is an Anglicism unless you include some sort of condition ...sen ĝeno al vi?

erinja (Visa profilen) 30 juni 2016 19:49:27

opalo:It seems to me that the use of the conditional form in Ĉu mi povus uzi vian ombrelon? is an Anglicism unless you include some sort of condition ...sen ĝeno al vi?
It's not an anglicism. Though -us usually shows an imagined action versus a real action, -us can be used to show politeness. The use of a conditional for politeness is seen in English, of course, but lots of other languages do it, so Esperanto's use of this idea isn't too surprising.

PMEG:US por mildeco «
Oni ankaŭ uzas US-modon por pli milde prezenti petojn aŭ dezirojn:
Mi dezirus aĉeti kelkajn aferojn. Reala deziro, sed ĝentile prezentata.
Ĉu mi povus havi la skribilon? Tre ĝentila, milda peto.
Ĉu vi bonvolus paroli iom pli silente? Tre ĝentila, milda peto.
Translation:

The US-form is also used to more mildly present requests or desires:
Mi dezirus aĉeti kelkajn aferojn. [I would desire to buy some things] A real desire, but politely presented.
Ĉu mi povus havi la skribilon? [Could I have the writing implement?] A very polite, mild request.
Ĉu vi bonvolus paroli iom pli silente? [Would you have the good will to speak a bit more silently?] A very polite, mild request.

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