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Reflexive question de komencanto

貼文者: ailebol, 2008年3月19日

訊息: 25

語言: English

ailebol (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午3:48:45

He says that his dog is washing its face.
Li diras, ke lia hundo lavas sian vizagon.
This sentence is a little confusing to me. Doesn’t the lia hundo refer to someone else’s dog? If you change lia to sia, would one be talking about the dog washing its own face or the dog washing the owner’s face?

Miland (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午4:15:38

ailebol: If you change lia to sia..
Of course, pardonu min - as mnlg says below, si cannot be a subject in its own right, only referred to. Clearly this lesson needed repetition in my case!

mnlg (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午4:32:05

The pronoun "si" refers to the subject and therefore cannot be used within the subject itself (in mathematical terms, you'd have recursion!).

Consider this example:

Carl and his wife go to the restaurant.
Karlo kaj lia edzino iras al la restoracio.

If you had used "sia", the meaning would have been something like "Carl and the wife of [Carl and the wife of Carl and the wife of [..."

eb.eric (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午7:42:41

now i'm stuck reading that sentence for the rest of my life

Taciturn_ (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午8:59:32

Tio funkcias tiel:

Li diras, ke lia hundo lavas sian vizagxon.-> La hundo lavas sian propran vizagxon

Li diras, ke lia hundo lavas lian vizagxon.-> La hundo lavas la vizagxon de li (do, la vizagxon ke ne estas sia propra)

Sed mi ne povas tute diri kies vizagxon la hundo lavus en:
Karlo diras ke li kaj Marko sidis en gxardeno kaj sia hundo lavis lian vizagxon.

(En tiu frazo oni bezonos aldonindan informajxon se la situacio kaj scio ne suficxas por kompreni korekte)

Ankaux mi pensas ke en cxi tiu propozocio oni devas modifi "lia hundo" al "sia hundo".Do, por sekvi bone la regulon.

Li diras ke sia hundo lavas sian vizagxon.

mnlg (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月19日下午9:26:53

Taciturn_:Li diras ke sia hundo lavas sian vizagxon.
This is not correct. The sub-sentence here is "sia hundo lavas sian vizaĝon", and it can't work, because there's a "sia" in the subject. Since "sia" means "of the subject", you have a recursion again. ("The dog of [the dog of the dog of [...", etc).

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月20日上午2:20:44

Feel free to post in any language in this forum, but please include an English translation, since it is the English language forum. Thanks!

Taciturn_ (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月20日上午4:04:13

mnlg

hey, Man,What the nonsense are you talking about?
I will perfectly well understand this sentence.

Taciturn_ (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月20日上午4:47:04

Hm just i whanted to say that:
Almenaux ke "hundo" estas subjekto de la subordinata propozicio, nenio vere malpermesas al ni uzi "sia"-n kun gxi en cxi tiu okazo,cxar tiu refleksivo rilatas al la subjekto de la cxefa propozocio tute simple.

Karlo kaj Marko sidis en la benko kaj Karlo diras ke sia hundo forkuris kaj li ne povas trovi gxin.

Aw my God! i imagine how this guy`s mind starts its : the dog of the dog(the dog of(the dog of.............
Poor chap, hehe.

(Hm i just whanted to say that:
Nothing really can stop us from using "sia",though it`s a subject of the subordinate sentence ,but at the same time it is also a part of the more complex frase.So that "sia" just reffers us to the subject of the main sentence.)

mnlg (顯示個人資料) 2008年3月20日下午1:41:45

Hi, Taciturn_

I am here to help those who ask for help. If you don't need my help, feel free to ignore it. And if you prefer using your own grammar, go ahead. Just don't present it as Esperanto grammar, because your examples are incorrect.

As for the "nonsense" and the "poor chap", I hope they are just poorly translated versions of the otherwise quite kind and amicable opinions you thought up in your native language, because even if you were right and I were wrong, there should be no reason to avoid showing respect in our conversations, don't you think so?

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