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Superbazaro by Martin kaj La Talpoj - Understanding imperative

від Ljubog, 1 жовтня 2017 р.

Повідомлення: 10

Мова: English

Ljubog (Переглянути профіль) 1 жовтня 2017 р. 20:29:07

Helpo, mi petas!

I wander over lyrics of this very good song by Martin kaj la Talpoj, Superbazaro:

Sed vi venas al mi kvazaŭ estus mi superbazaro (but you come to me as if i am a supermarket)
Kion vi volas de mi, kion vi volas de mi (what you want from me)
Mi ofertu ĝin tuj

Kaj vi prenas de mi kvazaŭ estus elekto de varoj (and you take from me as if i am a selection of products)
Kion vi volas de mi, kion vi volas de mi
Mi provizu vin tuj

So what does ofertu and provizu mean here? I should offer it right away? Or let me offer it right away? Or is it a poetic license to not put "ke", so it is "vi volas de mi ke mi ofertu gxin tuj" - you want me to offer it right away?

Dankon čiuj!

NoordZee (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 06:54:37

This is a hard one. Vortaro.net states: Oni ne uzu oferti en la senco de donaci. I am inclined to agree with: Let me offer it right away. As regards provizu, Let me supply (or is vin meant to be ĝin?) you immediately. Of course, a poem or song is bound to take poetic licence more easily than in ordinary writing but in the song, Martin... does not ask about offering or providing. He seems to want to oblige and hence states: Let me......

Ljubog (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 14:17:12

Yes, yes, it is not a question, I put the question mark. But is he saying "Let me", as if it is his own will to offer, or is it "I should offer", "I am (expected) to offer right away". The context of the rest of the lyrics points more to latter, that it is his duty, in the eyes of his partner, or whoever is "you" in the song. That is how I understand it. But I'm not sure, and I can seem to find a clear enough explanation about the use of imperative (also called volitive, or "-u form")

In duolingo course imperative in first person singular (mi x-u) is both "let me" (my free will suggestion), and "I should" (my duty).

So, what does one express by using imperative in first person singular (mi x-u) in general and then particularly in case of this song?

Dankon!

Roch (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 16:26:26

NoordZee (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 22:42:59

We are talking about the imperative mood and hence the -u- ending. 'Should' normally would fall under the conditional mood with an -us- ending. I still think that Let me....could be correct. A person cannot give a command to himself in Esperanto. I don't know what else we can come up with. The word 'should' is strictly speaking not an imperative in my opinion.

Ljubog (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 23:20:15

Jes, dankon! The video has subtitles, and since you have to translate it somehow, it is "let me offer". But I don't think that translation is that authoritative, since a few lines later another imperative "mi provizu" is translated "i'll supply you", which is just plain future tense, right? And "kesto" is translated as "store", hm?
If I complicate too much, if "mi x-u" is simply "let me x", than Duolingo shouldn't allow "I should offer" as correct. But I'm not a native english speaker.

If there is no clear answer what is the meaning of imperative in first person singular, than we will never know if the "mi" in the song is just stating (protesting) how "you" is nonchalant in demanding, or is "mi" an accommodating person, perhaps in love, but seen only as a friend, or "you" is just using him for occasional sex with some frivolous chat before and after, not caring for deeper emotions...

This ambiguity seems to me like a case of language (especially constructed one) allowing you grammatical forms that you can use but there is no real thing (idea) to express with that form. But as I am a komencanto, I hoped experienced speakers will just tell me "It's just let me offer", or "No, he just omitted ke".

Maybe the "mi" in the song doesn't know himself is he protesting or surrendering, and that's why the poet used this form in such ambiguous manner. OK, that would make the lyrics very good.
But I still don't understand clearly what idea is expressed by saying "mi x-u".

Ljubog (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 23:39:13

NoordZee, dankon! This above was my reply to a link to a video that I started writing before you published this.

So he is a supermarket! ridulo.gif)

NoordZee (Переглянути профіль) 2 жовтня 2017 р. 23:57:06

I did a bit of digging into this subject. I note that if you say: 'Mi lernu!, this could be translated as Let me learn but also as I shall learn! Consequently, the verbs 'ofertu' and 'provizu' perhaps may also be translated as I shall......!
He seems to intimate that 'she' is taking advantage of him and keeps on taking and taking. I think that we are agreed that it could never be a command as shown in the verse above. The suggestion seems to be that he feels just about obliged to give her things. (From the supermarket shelves ridulo.gif ) As an aside, Duolingo is not necessarily authorative and I have in the past suggested at least a dozen of changes in the way they used Esperanto or the translation into English. Duolingo heavily relies on the input from learners to become ever more successful. By the way, English is my second language.

EldanarLambetur (Переглянути профіль) 3 жовтня 2017 р. 13:02:10

The u-mood does quite a bit of work in Esperanto. And it's really down to context as to what work it's doing. English has a lot of ways of expressing stuff that the u-mood completely covers.

Check out this page: u-mood.

The usage you're seeing here, probably corresponds to the "U-Moon in Indirect Commands" section.

I would agree that "Let me..." is a good translation here.

In some contexts, it certainly seems to equate to "should". I've seen people prefer it to the "devus" should construction. I would say that the "-us" general conditional construction is more of a "would" than a "should".

Ljubog (Переглянути профіль) 3 жовтня 2017 р. 14:43:12

Dankon, NoordZee kaj Eldanar!

Whoever called this a "mood" was very perceptive, since it is really fluid like a mood. ridulo.gif

I wander to what extent is this wide usage Zamenhof's design, and to what extent it spread by the direct translations by the early esperanto community from their first languages.

Sed, mi nun revenu lerni komencantajn nivelojn! Unuajn aferojn unue! ridulo.gif

Filipo estas studento...

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