Ujumbe: 6
Lugha: English
sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 11 Januari 2019 3:10:05 alasiri
One of the characteristics of money is interchangeablility of denominations. Thus I can take two 50 pence coins to a bank and receive a 1 pound coin.
In 1907 I could take 8 half crowns to a bank, or a one pound note, and receive (without loss) a 1 pound gold coin (the sovereign). But today I can only buy gold coins from a mint at a premium.
However if we are going to revive the Spesmilo, as universal money by taking advantage of the fact that many mints across the world issue gold coins, shouldn't I be able to exchange any of these coins for rubles, pounds, euro's (whatever) and not lose out.
Doesn't this then imply that in Esperantujo there should be a convention about the exchange rate between the Spesmilo and local currencies, and that, for the avoidance of loss, this exchange rate should reflect the premium that I would typically pay to acquire Spesmiloj in gold coin form?
There is no problem about calculating the Spesmilo value of any gold coin what ever the composition (fineness) of the alloy used or even if is it of .999 (pure) gold. De Saussure specified the formula in terms of 22 carat gold (8 gram =10 Sm). But it is a simple matter to calculate for any coin not of that fineness what its equivalent weight would be in 22 carat gold.
I have already proposed in an article shortly to appear in the British Esperantist that for exchange into the all the various paper moneys of the world that the exchange rate should be 8 grams of pure gold = 10 Spesmiloj, (ie a 9% premium over the gold content) and I think this is fair in that few gold coins can be bought at any mint for a significantly lower premium.
If we Esperantists accept this convention. it means that truly international money (which can't be corrupted by governments) is available to us today and de Saussure's dream can become a reality.
Also such a convention would be a powerful reason for any non-Esperantist to look on the Esperanto community favourably.
(Any jeweller or pawn broker will, of course, turn your gold coin into local currency at a price, but only at one that gives him a profit. We Esperantists on the other hand don't need to exploit each other.)
In 1907 I could take 8 half crowns to a bank, or a one pound note, and receive (without loss) a 1 pound gold coin (the sovereign). But today I can only buy gold coins from a mint at a premium.
However if we are going to revive the Spesmilo, as universal money by taking advantage of the fact that many mints across the world issue gold coins, shouldn't I be able to exchange any of these coins for rubles, pounds, euro's (whatever) and not lose out.
Doesn't this then imply that in Esperantujo there should be a convention about the exchange rate between the Spesmilo and local currencies, and that, for the avoidance of loss, this exchange rate should reflect the premium that I would typically pay to acquire Spesmiloj in gold coin form?
There is no problem about calculating the Spesmilo value of any gold coin what ever the composition (fineness) of the alloy used or even if is it of .999 (pure) gold. De Saussure specified the formula in terms of 22 carat gold (8 gram =10 Sm). But it is a simple matter to calculate for any coin not of that fineness what its equivalent weight would be in 22 carat gold.
I have already proposed in an article shortly to appear in the British Esperantist that for exchange into the all the various paper moneys of the world that the exchange rate should be 8 grams of pure gold = 10 Spesmiloj, (ie a 9% premium over the gold content) and I think this is fair in that few gold coins can be bought at any mint for a significantly lower premium.
If we Esperantists accept this convention. it means that truly international money (which can't be corrupted by governments) is available to us today and de Saussure's dream can become a reality.
Also such a convention would be a powerful reason for any non-Esperantist to look on the Esperanto community favourably.
(Any jeweller or pawn broker will, of course, turn your gold coin into local currency at a price, but only at one that gives him a profit. We Esperantists on the other hand don't need to exploit each other.)
Metsis (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 11 Januari 2019 7:47:49 alasiri
Let me see, whether I understood you correctly. You define 8 grams of pure gold = 10 Spesmiloj. How much is your pure? 916 (22 carat) or 999 (24 carat) or even more nines?
I admit, that I have thinking about this. I still see two problems here:
(a) People don't have gold coins, so they have to buy them from mints. The price of bullion coins approaches the value of gold content, when you buy sufficiently many, say 10. But one sovereign bullions (fineness 916) from Royal Mint (to use your example mint) in that quantity cost over 2800 euros (+ post + possible taxes). Who would buy that many?
(b) The value of a gold coin is too high to be usable. What can you buy in Esperantujo with a coin worth 280 euros? Nothing, so the seller needs to give exchange. What currency would that be? If it is any national currency, this opens a hole for speculation.
Don't worry. I have an idea. Let's make a mobile app, with which you can buy spesojn (1 spesmilo = 1000 spesoj) from the system's "bank", that holds gold coins, i.e. spesoj are shares of those gold coins. Once you have spesoj, you can pay with to another user like in MobilePay, Swish or Vipps, i.e. type in the phone number of the receiver and the sum, accept the transfer and pling, the receiver got the money.
I admit, that I have thinking about this. I still see two problems here:
(a) People don't have gold coins, so they have to buy them from mints. The price of bullion coins approaches the value of gold content, when you buy sufficiently many, say 10. But one sovereign bullions (fineness 916) from Royal Mint (to use your example mint) in that quantity cost over 2800 euros (+ post + possible taxes). Who would buy that many?
(b) The value of a gold coin is too high to be usable. What can you buy in Esperantujo with a coin worth 280 euros? Nothing, so the seller needs to give exchange. What currency would that be? If it is any national currency, this opens a hole for speculation.
Don't worry. I have an idea. Let's make a mobile app, with which you can buy spesojn (1 spesmilo = 1000 spesoj) from the system's "bank", that holds gold coins, i.e. spesoj are shares of those gold coins. Once you have spesoj, you can pay with to another user like in MobilePay, Swish or Vipps, i.e. type in the phone number of the receiver and the sum, accept the transfer and pling, the receiver got the money.
sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 12 Januari 2019 12:09:18 alasiri
The point of the proposed convention is not to protect 'frenezuloj' who pay too much for their gold bullion coins, but to cover the premium on best value coins.
As far as I can work out the mint in Finland doesn't produce bullion gold coins. But have you tried local pawn brokers? Or what about the Vienna Mint? They do a single 1 ducat coin for 134 Euro's. (By the way, the price today at the Royal mint here in the UK for a single sovereign is £258 inc. insured delivery to a UK address.)
Remember that because we have regular international congresses, there is plenty of opportunity for gold coins to get into circulation in the Esperanto community without sendokostoj.
Anyway the matter is urgent. I don't know how soon the next financial crisis will be (in which all paper money not backed with gold will lose value). But my advice would be to stock up on Spesmilo coin now.
In phase one of the revival of the Spesmilo, the primary function will be store of value and getting a week's spending money in local currency at international congresses without bank charges - not for low value commerce.
The joy of gold coin is that there is no counter party. But once the idea of reviving the Spesmilo is established we can proceed to (convertible) base metal coin or notes, or even mobile phone apps.
As far as I can work out the mint in Finland doesn't produce bullion gold coins. But have you tried local pawn brokers? Or what about the Vienna Mint? They do a single 1 ducat coin for 134 Euro's. (By the way, the price today at the Royal mint here in the UK for a single sovereign is £258 inc. insured delivery to a UK address.)
Remember that because we have regular international congresses, there is plenty of opportunity for gold coins to get into circulation in the Esperanto community without sendokostoj.
Anyway the matter is urgent. I don't know how soon the next financial crisis will be (in which all paper money not backed with gold will lose value). But my advice would be to stock up on Spesmilo coin now.
In phase one of the revival of the Spesmilo, the primary function will be store of value and getting a week's spending money in local currency at international congresses without bank charges - not for low value commerce.
The joy of gold coin is that there is no counter party. But once the idea of reviving the Spesmilo is established we can proceed to (convertible) base metal coin or notes, or even mobile phone apps.
Metsis (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Januari 2019 9:17:41 alasiri
You worked out correctly, the Finnish mint doesn't produce bullion gold coins. For any money to be legal tender in an euro country, it has to have a value expressed in euros. I discovered, that they produce a gold coin, nominally worth 100 €, but as you guess it is sold on a price, that is waaay over that or the gold value of it.
Actually I don't know anyone (perhaps I know only a little people), who would have such coins. I seriously doubt, whether pawn brokers have them. I have never visited one, primarily because I have had no need to and secondly visiting a pawn broker in my location may easily result in, that you are regarded as socially less dignified (is that a suitable expression?).
Sorry for keeping asking, but are you saying, that one British sovereign coin (7,988 g, fineness 916, i.e. 22 carat) equals to 10 ₷? Or that you need exact 8,00 g gold of fineness 1000 (such doesn't exist in any physical form) to have 10 ₷? Obviously in that later case that one British sovereign coin would not be less than 10 ₷.
Are you going to buy a fistful of sovereigns and put them into circulation next summer during UK in Lahti? Who would buy them or accept, when you buy something?
True, financial crises will come, but they will also go. What a couple of esperantists, plebs, can do about it? Well, we can sort out wastes, buy responsibly etc. and that way do our share for the global good, because there are other people already doing that and it's still easier to engage people that way instead of convincing them to put their money in expensive coins, which they can't use in everyday life.
But by all means go ahead and launch the idea and the coins. I'm easily led, so if you drop by at the next UK, I might even buy one from you
Actually I don't know anyone (perhaps I know only a little people), who would have such coins. I seriously doubt, whether pawn brokers have them. I have never visited one, primarily because I have had no need to and secondly visiting a pawn broker in my location may easily result in, that you are regarded as socially less dignified (is that a suitable expression?).
Sorry for keeping asking, but are you saying, that one British sovereign coin (7,988 g, fineness 916, i.e. 22 carat) equals to 10 ₷? Or that you need exact 8,00 g gold of fineness 1000 (such doesn't exist in any physical form) to have 10 ₷? Obviously in that later case that one British sovereign coin would not be less than 10 ₷.
Are you going to buy a fistful of sovereigns and put them into circulation next summer during UK in Lahti? Who would buy them or accept, when you buy something?
True, financial crises will come, but they will also go. What a couple of esperantists, plebs, can do about it? Well, we can sort out wastes, buy responsibly etc. and that way do our share for the global good, because there are other people already doing that and it's still easier to engage people that way instead of convincing them to put their money in expensive coins, which they can't use in everyday life.
But by all means go ahead and launch the idea and the coins. I'm easily led, so if you drop by at the next UK, I might even buy one from you
sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 14 Januari 2019 1:13:49 alasiri
Bedaŭrinde, pro kosto kaj distanco mi verŝajne ne partoprenos la UK en Finnlando. (Sed se mi estus venonta mi volonte vendus suverenon al vi je la sama prezo kiom oni pagas en Anglujo)
Tamen ŝajnas al mi tre verŝajne ke nia amiko Turfalko ĉeestos. Li kredeble ankoraŭ ne sufiĉe vendis de tiuj 100 Steloj moneroj (en arĝento) kiujn li farigis ĉe la stampejo en Vieno. Eble li bonvolus alporti 1 dukaton (4.7 Sm), se vi garantios aĉetemon.
Financaj krizoj venas kaj forpasas, sed kio ne ĉesas estas la konstanta senvaloriĝo de paper-mono.
La kialo por la proponita kurzo estas ĝuste tio ke, kontraste al en 1907, oni ne plu povas havigi orajn monerojn je la preciza valoro de la entenata oro. Oni ĉiam devas pagi pli, kaj laŭ miaj esploroj la plus-kosto por la plej prezindaj malgrandaj oraj moneroj (aĉetitaj unuope) estas ĉirkaŭ 9% (kiu estas la procentaĵa ekceso de 24 super 22).
Ĉu do vi fine komprenas? Historie la Spesmilo estis difinata reference al 22-karata oro. Kaj tio servas por difini la nominalajn valorojn. Sed nuntempe la Stampejoj je unuopa aĉeto prezumas (la plej prezindajn) malgrandajn monerojn el 22-karata oro (aŭ de ekvivalenta pezo en 22-karata oro) kvazaŭ ili estus el pura (24-karata) oro.
La kalkulo de la nominala valoro de la dukato, kiu estas de 986-fajneco procedas jene. Unue oni kalkulas la pezon kiun havus la monero se ĝi estas el 22 karata oro (916-a fajneco) kun la sama ora enhavo, tiam uzante tiun pezon oni aplikas la de-Saussuran formulon por konverti al Spesmiloj. Sed por determini kiom oni pagu en Eŭroj por ĉiu nominala Spesmilo oni multiplikas la aktualan prezon de 1 gramo da pura oro per 8/10.
Tamen ŝajnas al mi tre verŝajne ke nia amiko Turfalko ĉeestos. Li kredeble ankoraŭ ne sufiĉe vendis de tiuj 100 Steloj moneroj (en arĝento) kiujn li farigis ĉe la stampejo en Vieno. Eble li bonvolus alporti 1 dukaton (4.7 Sm), se vi garantios aĉetemon.
Financaj krizoj venas kaj forpasas, sed kio ne ĉesas estas la konstanta senvaloriĝo de paper-mono.
Sorry for keeping asking, but are you saying, that one British sovereign coin (7,988 g, fineness 916, i.e. 22 carat) equals to 10 SmJes tio ĝustas laŭ la historia difino . Sed laŭ la proponita kurzo por interŝango kun ne-orligita mono, oni kalkulu la Spesmilon je 8 gramoj de pura oro = 10 Spesmilojn. Tio donus hodiaŭan prezon por 1 dukato de 4.7 x 29 = 136 Eŭrojn. (La hodiaŭa Viena Stampeja prezo estas 135 Eŭroj.)
La kialo por la proponita kurzo estas ĝuste tio ke, kontraste al en 1907, oni ne plu povas havigi orajn monerojn je la preciza valoro de la entenata oro. Oni ĉiam devas pagi pli, kaj laŭ miaj esploroj la plus-kosto por la plej prezindaj malgrandaj oraj moneroj (aĉetitaj unuope) estas ĉirkaŭ 9% (kiu estas la procentaĵa ekceso de 24 super 22).
Ĉu do vi fine komprenas? Historie la Spesmilo estis difinata reference al 22-karata oro. Kaj tio servas por difini la nominalajn valorojn. Sed nuntempe la Stampejoj je unuopa aĉeto prezumas (la plej prezindajn) malgrandajn monerojn el 22-karata oro (aŭ de ekvivalenta pezo en 22-karata oro) kvazaŭ ili estus el pura (24-karata) oro.
La kalkulo de la nominala valoro de la dukato, kiu estas de 986-fajneco procedas jene. Unue oni kalkulas la pezon kiun havus la monero se ĝi estas el 22 karata oro (916-a fajneco) kun la sama ora enhavo, tiam uzante tiun pezon oni aplikas la de-Saussuran formulon por konverti al Spesmiloj. Sed por determini kiom oni pagu en Eŭroj por ĉiu nominala Spesmilo oni multiplikas la aktualan prezon de 1 gramo da pura oro per 8/10.
sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 14 Januari 2019 3:19:12 alasiri
Posta skribo: Mi tre ŝatus se Turfalko (serĉu en la forumo por trovi liajn kontaktaj detalojn) povus esti persvadata ligi al la Spesmilo siajn 100-Stelajn moneroj el arĝento je la kurzo 100 Steloj = 1 Spesmilon.
Se vi renkotos lin ĉe la UK, demandu lin ĉu li fakte perdus monon se li vendus po 29 Eŭroj (aŭ je la tiutempa kurzo en Euroj de la Spesmilo). Se li konsentus vi havos je unu frapo solvon del unu el viaj problemoj pri la revivigo de la Spesmilo.
Kompreneble por garantii la kurzon li devus esti preta (eventuale) reaĉeti siajn 100-Stelojn je la Spesmila prezo, tute same kiel kiu ajn eldonanto de Spesmiloj stampitaj el vulgara metalo devus akcepti re-aĉeton en or-ekvivalento.
Tamen por protekti sin kontraŭ iu subita salto en la prezo de oro (en Eŭroj), li povus, ĉar li loĝas en Vieno, aĉeti dukatojn kontraŭ la mono kiun li ricevas per la vendoj de la arĝentajn 100-Stelojn.
3 dukatojn asekurus 14 Spesmilojn.
Se vi renkotos lin ĉe la UK, demandu lin ĉu li fakte perdus monon se li vendus po 29 Eŭroj (aŭ je la tiutempa kurzo en Euroj de la Spesmilo). Se li konsentus vi havos je unu frapo solvon del unu el viaj problemoj pri la revivigo de la Spesmilo.
Kompreneble por garantii la kurzon li devus esti preta (eventuale) reaĉeti siajn 100-Stelojn je la Spesmila prezo, tute same kiel kiu ajn eldonanto de Spesmiloj stampitaj el vulgara metalo devus akcepti re-aĉeton en or-ekvivalento.
Tamen por protekti sin kontraŭ iu subita salto en la prezo de oro (en Eŭroj), li povus, ĉar li loĝas en Vieno, aĉeti dukatojn kontraŭ la mono kiun li ricevas per la vendoj de la arĝentajn 100-Stelojn.
3 dukatojn asekurus 14 Spesmilojn.