Tin nhắn: 29
Nội dung: English
sergejm (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:38:24 Ngày 07 tháng 4 năm 2019
Mi parolas pri distingo de predikativo.
Eble uzado de akuzativo oni distingas
amikon Paŭlon, amikinon Annan - homo, li/ŝi
lingvon Esperanto - objekto, ĝi
- same kiel en pasivo (far de/per)
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:04:56 Ngày 11 tháng 4 năm 2019
MiMalamasLaAnglan:While you could, Ĉina Popola Respubliko (中华人民共和国) and Respubliko Ĉinio (中華民國) are the official names of those two countries. There are also two Kongos, Respubliko Kongo (Repubilika ya Kôngo) and Demokratia Respubliko Kongo (Repubilika ya Kôngo ya Dimokalasi).
I meant "Ĉina Respubliko" as opposed to "Ĉinio-Respubliko". I guess you could also say "Ĉinia Respubliko".
A political opinion:
I'm reluctant to give any political entity exclusive right to a term, which has been used about something else. Note, that this reluctance has nothing to do, what I think about different political systems. Thus
- China ≠ People's Republic of China, but a more vague area of Imperial China, the area varied during the centuries; if you talk about currently existing states, you have to be more specific
- Europe ≠ EU, because Europe stretches from Atlantic to Ural, from Arctic Sea to Mediterranean
- America ≠ USA, because America stretches from Pacific to Atlantic, from Arctic Sea to Southern Ocean
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:29:09 Ngày 12 tháng 4 năm 2019
MiMalamasLaAnglan:Hmm, that's actually a good question. In English, in my native Finnish and possibly in several other languages a genitive expression is used
But shouldn't you say Respubliko Ĉinia, Respubliko Konga, or Demokratia Respubliko Konga? There should be only one noun, right?
- Republic of China, Kiinan tasavalta
- Republic of Kongo, Kongon tasavalta
Naturally the genitive above doesn't denote any possession, but acts as glue between two nouns. However the E-o preposition de, despite being woefully overloaded with several meanings, cannot for once be used for such marking. IMHO, the rule 12 would be too stretched here.
Since a compound word (Ĉinirespubliko) is out of the question here, the remaining alternatives are
- Respubliko Ĉinio
- Ĉinia Respubliko
The second alternative is based on the common E-o usage of adjective as glue between the two nous. I admit, that this romance language pattern is a little strange to me being used to compound words and genitive. I understand it so, that the adjective ĉina (without i) would mean there is some Chinese trait or feature how a republic could be run. The adjective ĉinia (with i) just shifts this trait or feature be China-land-ian or -ish, which doesn't make sense. Compare this with Demokratia Respubliko Kongo, where demokratia describes the republic and not Kongo.
Thus of the alternatives Respubliko Ĉinio is the best to describe, what Ĉinio is. It's a republic. Also not a minor argument in favour of this form is, that the countries themselves use such official names.
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:57:33 Ngày 14 tháng 4 năm 2019
Firstly what a country is called, is one of the rights of sovereign countries. If a country wants to be called "Kingdom of Naysayers", they are fully entitled to so. A rule of diplomacy is, that other countries follow the naming as closely as possible, so that country would ,for instance, be called Königreich der Neinsager by Germany. So if Respubliko Ĉinio is an adequate translation of 中華民國, so be it.
Secondly the E-o prepositions should be understood quite literally. I Finnish the genitive case is used very liberally as a glue between nouns, even the English usage of the preposition "of" is more liberal than of the E-o preposition de. Plena Ilustrita Vortaro lists the 13 cases (not 12 as I erroneously wrote earlier), where you can use de. As far as I can decipher none of them would cover Respubliko de Ĉinio. Even the 12th case IMHO requires, that the former noun is a more or less natural feature of the latter one, la prezo de pano. So a state, China is this case, would have a feature called republic. Can a certain political system be a natural feature of a state? IMHO, no.
nornen (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:28:12 Ngày 15 tháng 4 năm 2019
Metsis:Königreich der NeinsägerAldoneteto: "Neinsager" kaj ne "Neinsäger".
sagen (diri) -> Sager (diranto)
sägen (segi) -> Säger (seganto)
Neinsäger = Naysawyer
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:59:34 Ngày 16 tháng 4 năm 2019
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 06:31:01 Ngày 17 tháng 4 năm 2019
MiMalamasLaAnglan:I tried to cover this with "more or less natural feature of the latter one". For instance one can expect a speech to have a beginning and an end or a bread a price. At least to me these associations are more or less natural. However I don't automatically respond in an association test to word "China" with a response "republic" (Disclaimer: this applies to most countries, not just the one mentioned).
I don't think that la dependecon de la dua subst. rilate al la unua, sen preciza senco necessarily refers to a "natural feature", especially in examples such as konkludo de la parolado and sub la masko de homamo.
It's well within the parameters, that I have misunderstood the whole rule (have I watched too many episodes of Star Trek?
) Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:03:22 Ngày 18 tháng 4 năm 2019
MiMalamasLaAnglan:Unfortunately the often quoted 16 rules give a false impression of the applicability of je, because it isn't actually nowadays used so freely. Perhaps it was originally meant to be a joker-like preposition, applicable whenever any other wouldn't fit. As a side-note my limited understanding of Ido is, that it has retained there that possibility, thus the Ido preposition ye can be used rather freely.
Doesn't sen preciza senco mean any relationship between two words when no other preposition would quite work? Maybe je would be better in this situation.
However the contemporary E-o usage of je limits it to a couple of cases. If you take a look at PIV, you notice, that some of these cases are rather hard to explain and different languages probably use different kind of expressions to express the same idea, e.g. libera je manko (free from shortage), kredi je Dio (believe in God).
Other use of je is to avoid mixing with the agent (the infamous de) when using nouns formed from verbs: kalkulo je io (calculation of something), soifado je io (thirst after something), nekreado je Dio (disbelief in God) etc,
E-o often uses the Romance language way of using la to denote the speaker's own bodyparts, la nazo : my nose. Je is used denote someone else's bodyparts: konduki iun je la nazo : to draw someone from nose (or does one say so in English?), to outwit someone.
Undoubtedly the most clearcut usage of je is with time.
Mi alvenos la trian : I will arrive at the third day of the month.
Mi alvenos je la tria : I will arrive at three o'clock.
Metsis (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:58:49 Ngày 24 tháng 4 năm 2019
MiMalamasLaAnglan:I don't know. If pressed, I could be persuaded to accept de, because it's sufficiently fuzzy, but still my first choice would be sans, i.e. Respubliko Ĉinio without any preposition.
So if there is a preposition that would work to describe the Respubliko Ĉinio, what would it be? Pri?