הודעות: 16
שפה: Esperanto
Metsis (הצגת פרופיל) 16 באפריל 2019, 12:58:22
nornen:Kiel esperantigi anglajn ing-formojn?Precize.
...
nornen:Jes, I would disregard the whole site.
Ĉi tie, “walking”, “singing” and “having come” ne estas gerundoj, sed participoj. Nur “paying” estas eble gerundo. Retejo pri Gramatiko, kiu ne konas la malsamecon inter participoj kaj gerundoj, kaj kiu donas ekzemple “having came” anstataux “having come”, eble ne estas fidinda.
What Nornen says about English and its development, sounds very plausible at least to my layman's ears. While being originally a Germanic language, English has been bombarded by Romance languages, especially by French, during the centuries, so that it now days it is a mess, eh... mixes things somewhat. You might be interested in Anglish, the true Germanic variant of English.
MiMalamasLaAnglan (הצגת פרופיל) 16 באפריל 2019, 14:10:09
Metsis:I agree that Manĝi homojn estas malĝusta would be the most natural way to say this.MiMalamasLaAnglan:Or to avoid the polysemic de one can say Manĝado homojn estas malĝusta, even if that may feel strange to some. Anyway there is no restriction in E-o for having a verb as a subject of a sentence, so manĝi homojn estas malĝuste is perhaps the simplest one.sergejm:Manĝi homojn estas malĝustE.Or, to be more gerund-like, one could say "Manĝado de homoj estas malĝusta".
Then the subject is a verb, the predicative is an adverb.
Can you please explain how to use the accusative in phrases like your example of Manĝado homojn estas malĝusta?
MiMalamasLaAnglan (הצגת פרופיל) 16 באפריל 2019, 14:24:10
Metsis:What would the opposite of Anglish be like (an English-based Romance language)?nornen:Kiel esperantigi anglajn ing-formojn?Precize.
...
nornen:Jes, I would disregard the whole site.
Ĉi tie, “walking”, “singing” and “having come” ne estas gerundoj, sed participoj. Nur “paying” estas eble gerundo. Retejo pri Gramatiko, kiu ne konas la malsamecon inter participoj kaj gerundoj, kaj kiu donas ekzemple “having came” anstataux “having come”, eble ne estas fidinda.
What Nornen says about English and its development, sounds very plausible at least to my layman's ears. While being originally a Germanic language, English has been bombarded by Romance languages, especially by French, during the centuries, so that it now days it is a mess, eh... mixes things somewhat. You might be interested in Anglish, the true Germanic variant of English.
nornen (הצגת פרופיל) 16 באפריל 2019, 15:31:56
MiMalamasLaAnglan:What would the opposite of Anglish be like (an English-based Romance language)?That would be modern English... to a certain degree.
Modern English surely is not a Romance language, but the result of centuries of linguistic contact between a Germanic substrate (Aenglisc) and Romance superstrates (Latin, Francish, French). The effect is so huge (throwing away 80% of the original lexicon, reworking wide parts of the grammar, etc) that one might even argue that modern English could be considered a creole.
Metsis (הצגת פרופיל) 17 באפריל 2019, 08:21:41
MiMalamasLaAnglan:Can you please explain how to use the accusative in phrases like your example of Manĝado homojn estas malĝusta?It boils down to, that de is polysemic, has multiple meanings, of which two are, that it can denote both subject and object. PMEG has examples:
- La kanto de la birdoj estas agrabla : The singing of birds is nice.
Here de denotes the subject.
- Vortoj kunmetitaj estas kreataj per simpla kunligado de vortoj : Compound words are created simply by putting words together.
Here de denotes the object.
- Oni ankoraŭ ne solvis la murdon de Olof Palme.
Did Palme murder someone or was Palme murdered?
- Hodiaŭ posttagmeze okazos akcepto de la urbestro.
Will the mayor accept someone or something or will the mayor be accepted?
One can mark the subject by fare de:
- Hodiaŭ posttagmeze okazos akcepto fare de la urbestro
- Manĝado homojn estas malĝuste.
Z himself sometimes used this construction of -ado + accusative, which requires that the root of the -ado word (here manĝ/) has verbial character. You can check this character in a dictionary: is the first explanation given for a verb? Compare this to the gerund in English: Eating people is wrong. Despite being a noun both the gerund and the -ado word retain something of their verbial origin by being capable of having an direct object: people resp. homojn.
- Mi demandas vin → Mi havas demandon al vi.
Here a direct object of a verb has been replaced with a noun with an indirect object indicated by a preposition.
MiMalamasLaAnglan (הצגת פרופיל) 17 באפריל 2019, 14:35:20
nornen:I meant if English actually had Romance grammar, maybe like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brithenig, but more English than Celtic.MiMalamasLaAnglan:What would the opposite of Anglish be like (an English-based Romance language)?That would be modern English... to a certain degree.
Modern English surely is not a Romance language, but the result of centuries of linguistic contact between a Germanic substrate (Aenglisc) and Romance superstrates (Latin, Francish, French). The effect is so huge (throwing away 80% of the original lexicon, reworking wide parts of the grammar, etc) that one might even argue that modern English could be considered a creole.