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"Jam"

tommjames-tól, 2008. július 15.

Hozzászólások: 30

Nyelv: English

tommjames (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 9:23:51

Hi,

I'm having a little bit of difficulty lately with the word 'jam'. Hopefully someone out there can make things a little clearer for me.

My confusions stem from reading the following page:

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/e-vortecaj_vort...

which seems to indicate a whole bunch of uses of the word 'jam' which I had not been aware of. In fact, it seems (if my understanding is correct) that the primary meaning of jam is not even the 'already' that is usually attributed to it, but is more something like 'now' ("I am now in the train", "I now have my hat" etc) where these phrases use jam to emphasize a recent change in state or circumstance. In English, you would not use 'already', 'yet' or 'by now' to indicate that. It would almost always just be 'now'.

Given this I am confused as to how I should interpret some esperanto sentences. Consider the following:

"Mi jam estas en la trajno".

I don't know whether I should interpret this as either:

"I am now in the train" (I wasn't before, but that state just changed).

..or..

"I am already in the train" (Indicating a possible sense of earlierness with regards to necessity or expectation).

My question therefore is how would you interpret the sentence "Mi jam estas en la trajno"? And how would you translate the two example english sentences above into Esperanto?

Thanks ridulo.gif

mnlg (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 12:18:24

"jam" is already; "nun" is now.

As mr. Wennergren says, "jam" shows a change from a previous state. If someone called me on my cell phone, asking me whether I have already started my trip, I could answer "Mi jam estas en la trajno", meaning that indeed I have.

I can't find this example in the page you provided. I can however find the other one, "Mi jam havas mian ĉapelon; nun serĉu vi vian.". I already have my hat, now you find yours. That "jam" can be replaced with a "nun", but the meaning would change a little. With "jam", I am stating that contrary to what expected, or hoped, the situation has changed or evolved. With "nun" I would merely state the situation at hand.
And how would you translate the two example english sentences above into Esperanto?
I am now in the train: "Mi estas nun en la trajno". I might have been in the train even a few minutes ago, but what matter is that I am there now.

I am already in the train, "Mi estas jam en la trajno". I am in the train, possibly before other people, or even myself was planned or expected to be.

I'm not sure I have addressed your question completely but feel free to ask if you still have doubts.

Taciturn_ (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 12:45:33

tommjames:Hi,

I'm having a little bit of difficulty lately with the word 'jam'. Hopefully someone out there can make things a little clearer for me.

My confusions stem from reading the following page:

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/e-vortecaj_vort...

which seems to indicate a whole bunch of uses of the word 'jam' which I had not been aware of. In fact, it seems (if my understanding is correct) that the primary meaning of jam is not even the 'already' that is usually attributed to it, but is more something like 'now' ("I am now in the train", "I now have my hat" etc) where these phrases use jam to emphasize a recent change in state or circumstance. In English, you would not use 'already', 'yet' or 'by now' to indicate that. It would almost always just be 'now'.

Given this I am confused as to how I should interpret some esperanto sentences. Consider the following:

"Mi jam estas en la trajno".

I don't know whether I should interpret this as either:

"I am now in the train" (I wasn't before, but that state just changed).

..or..

"I am already in the train" (Indicating a possible sense of earlierness with regards to necessity or expectation).

My question therefore is how would you interpret the sentence "Mi jam estas en la trajno"? And how would you translate the two example english sentences above into Esperanto?

Thanks ridulo.gif
-Marko,acxetu por mi glaciajxon.
-Oh,Maria,mi jam estas en la trajno!

Maria new that Marko would take the train.

-Mario,kie estas vi?
-Mi jam estas en la trajno. ( it is known that Mario was to get the train and he says that he has already done it)

In russian we very often say this such way.
you can`t translate it like "now".

I`m not good at english..perhaps you can translate it like:
-Marko, buy an icecreme for me.
-Oh,Maria,i`v already got the train.

Taciturn_ (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 13:08:04

Tio ĉi estis jam ne simpla pluvo, sed pluvego. - it was not a rain anymore ( jam ) but a downpour.
In this sentence "jam" is used to emphesize the change of state.

Taciturn_ (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 13:21:58

Se jam estas mem neata, la signifo fariĝas mala. Tiam la ago, al kiu jam rilatas, ankoraŭ ne komenciĝis: Ili ne jam alvenis. = Ili ankoraŭ ne alvenis. Zamenhof konsilis, ke oni evitu ne jam uzante anstataŭe ankoraŭ ne, kaj plej multaj tion faras. Ambaŭ esprimoj estas logikaj, sed la malkutimeco de ne jam estas sufiĉa motivo por preferi ankoraŭ ne.

Exactly! we never say "ne jam" meaning "ankoraux ne" in russian, nor in french, i think.So such usage would certainly confuse me.

tommjames (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 13:31:13

Previous to reading that PMEG page I would have used 'jam' and 'nun' in exactly the way you suggest, but I am still a little bit dubious because the explanation in the top section of the PMEG page dosn't seem to me to be alluding to possibilities like contraryness to expection, hope, planning etc (the kind of thing which in English you would use 'already' to emphasize). It seemed to me to be only talking about change in state. When I say in English "I now have my hat", the mere fact of a change in state is pretty much the only thing I want to emphasize, and so I assumed PMEG was referring to that manner of usage.

There is a section further down the page that does allude to it:
"Iafoje jam montras, ke io estas pli frua ol oni atendas, volas, kredas, scias aŭ simile:"
..however I'm assuming that the compartmentalised layout of the page indicates that this is a different manner of usage to what spoken of in the top section?

I guess my reading of PMEG could be wrong (and I sure hope it is), but that top section really seems to me to only be referring to state change, and not about the nature and circumstance of the change.

Do you read it differently? If its referring to something more than just the change in state, could you point it out for me coz I sure can;t see it!

Thanks

trojo (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 14:21:40

Jam is sometimes used for a kind of surrogate "perfect tense" it seems to me. Or at least it is sometimes used to express an idea that would in English often be expressed with a present perfect or past perfect construction.

Nun jam du jarojn daŭras la malsato en la lando. The sickness has continued in the land for two years now.

Mi jam loĝas ĉi tie kvin jarojn. I've lived here five years. (Note "loĝas" and not "loĝis" since I still live here).

Some of the proposed senses of "jam" in PMEG seem to drive at that, but of course PMEG isn't going to frame its usage rules by comparing them to English.

Taciturn_ (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 14:56:01

tommjames:
I guess my reading of PMEG could be wrong (and I sure hope it is), but that top section really seems to me to only be referring to state change, and not about the nature and circumstance of the change.

Do you read it differently? If its referring to something more than just the change in state, could you point it out for me coz I sure can;t see it!

Thanks
"Jam" is used only to express change of state,you are right about it.
That part of Bertilov`s just makes people confused.If the state won`t change, you won`t be able to use "jam".Doesn`t matter weather you expected or not anything.If you expected and it whent like you thought - you use "jam". If not the way you whanted - you still use "jam".So "jam" has nothing much to do with what is expected, supposed or beleived in regard of when it might happen.

And trojo is right about perfect tense ridulo.gif it looks very much this way.

mnlg (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 15:50:07

trojo:Mi jam loĝas ĉi tie kvin jarojn. I've lived here five years. (Note "loĝas" and not "loĝis" since I still live here).
Could this be rendered into English as, like, "It's already been five years since I started living here", or "I've been living here for five years already"? That's how I see it, but since I am not a native speaker, I'm not sure to be correct. Italian has a construction very similar to Esperanto.

tommjames (Profil megtekintése) 2008. július 15. 15:59:08

Could this be rendered into English as, like, "It's already been five years since I started living here", or "I've been living here for five years already"?
This is how I would read it.

However, if I understand PMEG correctly, it might also mean something like,

"Recently it just turned a full 5 years that I've been living here"

Which is another area of confusion for me regarding 'jam', as how would I know which sense is intended?

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