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Kiel oni diras "to back out" (de parkada spaco por autoj en parkejoj) en Esperanto ?

od uživatele Nala_Cat15 ze dne 16. července 2019

Příspěvky: 17

Jazyk: Esperanto

Nala_Cat15 (Ukázat profil) 16. července 2019 0:09:32

Unu al la solaj definoj ke mi povas ekpensi , estas "elrestigiĝi" aŭ eblas "elrestiĝi ....de la parkado spaco/loko" ankaŭ ĉu Elaŭt(ej)iĝi funkcias bone? (Mi kreis le demandon denove ĉar mi volis redakti la titolon)

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 16. července 2019 11:26:50

Retro-umi el ... (see either the Tekstaro for usage for retro- or PIV for definition)

StefKo (Ukázat profil) 16. července 2019 11:59:31

Nala_Cat15:Unu al la solaj definoj ke mi povas ekpensi , estas "elrestigiĝi" aŭ eblas "elrestiĝi ....de la parkado spaco/loko" ankaŭ ĉu Elaŭt(ej)iĝi funkcias bone? (Mi kreis le demandon denove ĉar mi volis redakti la titolon)
Sola difino kiun mi elpensis...

Deparki aŭton? Retroparki aŭton? Retrigi aŭton de parkejo? Igi retro aŭton de perkejo? Retriĝi/retroiri aŭte de parkejo? Depreni aŭton el parkejo? Foriri aŭte el parkejo?...

El vortaro.net:

parki (tr) = parkadi, parkumi.
parkadi, parkumi (tr) (pp veturilo). Restigi provizore.

DE

I - Prep. montranta:
A. rilatante al verbo:
1 la punkton de la spaco, kie komenciĝas movo, la malproksimigon, la deiron, k metafore la devenon, la malsimilecon: foriri de iu loko; desalti de ĉevalo; la vazo falis de la tablo
(...)

III - Pref. kun la senco I, A, 1 aŭ 2: defali, deflui, deformi, deklini, demeti, dekontrahi, delasi, deskvamiĝi, deverŝi, devojigi ktp.

thyrolf (Ukázat profil) 16. července 2019 14:32:57

forveturi el la parkejon ridulo.gif

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 17. července 2019 12:51:35

What Nala_cat is looking for is a translation of 'reverse' as applied to cars. If you drive (forwards) into a restricted space where there is insufficient room to turn the car around you will have to back out (or reverse out).

Renversi is no good as the idea is that what was top becomes bottom.

Reversi is no good as the idea is that what was inside now becomes outside.

Possibly inversigi might serve but it is rather imprecise, covering reversals left and right and up and down as well as from in one direction to in the other.

As far as I know retro is the best match for capturing the idea that you move in the opposite direction to the normal one, ie backwards rather than forwards. (which is what happens when you have to back out your car from a restricted space.

Now Esperanto is rather uncertain as to what corresponds to English's 'drive' (konduki stiri ŝofori) and drajvi and drivi have other meanings. So it is not obvious what verb you would combine with retro to get the idea of reversing a vehicle. Hence my suggestion of retro-umi .

Metsis (Ukázat profil) 18. července 2019 9:11:50

sudanglo:
Now Esperanto is rather uncertain as to what corresponds to English's 'drive' (konduki stiri ŝofori) and drajvi and drivi have other meanings. So it is not obvious what verb you would combine with retro to get the idea of reversing a vehicle. Hence my suggestion of retro-umi .
I might be off here, but to my understanding you can say in English "your drive a car" and "a car drives…", i.e. the same verb can be used in connection with a person performing an action and of a machine doing something as a result of a person performing an action, without mentioning the person. However those E-o verbs konduki, stiri and ŝofori can only be used in connection with a person.

To express that a car drives, you probably should use moviĝi, to move (by itself) with the retro prefix, but at least to my ears retromoviĝi is clumsy. So, jeah retroumi or perhaps retroveturi (see the second meaning of veturi).

Altebrilas (Ukázat profil) 21. července 2019 14:14:39

I suggest, for instance: La veturilo elviciĝis retroen, ekhaltis kaj direktiĝis deksten al elirejo de la parkejo.

Audrea (Ukázat profil) 9. srpna 2019 1:47:55

Al mia orelo sufiĉe klaras verbo kiel retroveturigi (aŭton el parkspaco).

Metsis (Ukázat profil) 9. srpna 2019 6:23:37

In English (and in Finnish) you can say both
  • I drive a car.
  • A car drives by.
and IIUC also
  • I reverse/back out from a parking spot.
  • A car reverses/backs out from a parking spot.
I.e. you can have a driver doing the driving or leave the driver unmentioned (either you don't mention the person or the car is a self-driving one).

As Sudanglo pointed out driving in Esperanto is more uncertain (pun intended), and to my understanding all these konduki, stiri, ŝofori and veturi can only be used, when the driver is mentioned, i.e. you cannot say *Aŭto kondukas*. Therefore he opted for retroumi. But can it be used both ways? Mi retroumas aŭton and Aŭto retroumas?

However Audrea's suggestion retroveturigi (see PIV) has certain appeal, because you can say
  • I reverse/back out from a parking spot : Mi retroveturigas aŭton el¹ parkspaco.
  • A car reverses/backs out from a parking spot : Aŭto retroveturas el parkspaco.
¹: Or should the preposition be de? Among other uses de is used for real movement from an "open" start point (fali de la tablo). Compare this to one of the uses of el, real movement from a "closed" start point (eliri el la urbo). Is a parking spot open or closed? It seems open to me.

Audrea (Ukázat profil) 9. srpna 2019 11:57:26

Or should the preposition be de?
My only reason for using el is that you would use the analogous preposition in Russian (and in English too, come to think of it - drive out of a parking space). Otherwise I am not sure why el seems more intuitive to me, but the sound of retroveturigi de is slightly off.

Returning to the original question - my only hesitation with retroumi is that it's not really clear what the word means - as is often the case with -um- words in compounds that are not already widespread, e.g. kolumo. Is it transitive? Intransitive? Can it only apply to vehicles, or can I say that about myself (e.g. «backing out of a deal»). If I were to see ŝi retroumis aŭton el parkspaco I would have to think for a bit to ensure I fully grasped the meaning - I worry that it's an Englishism.

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