讯息： 11
语言: Esperanto
Metsis (显示个人资料) 2019年9月6日上午9:21:17
Ne estas. Sekvas longa, malfacila klarigo en la angla 
Adverbs in Esperanto are very tightly associated with main verbs in a sentence – more than in many other languages. Thus in the sentence
Mi vokis al li venante ĉi tien
venante refers to vokis, which is an action performed by the subject (mi). So the sentence means
I called him, while I was coming (to) here.
I.e. I was coming and at the same time I called him.
If you want to express "I called him to come here", you need another construction than an adverb. What follows is one of the hardest parts of Esperanto, at least to me.
The English sentence "I called him to come here" actually contains a shortened clause or a non-finite clause. The full sentence is "I called, that he should come here", i.e. a main clause and a dependent clause. I don't know about English, but it appears, that in Esperanto you can make such shortened clauses only, when the verb in the main clause expresses purpose, will or possibility. The grammatical term for this is volative, volativo. In some languages it is called subjunctive, but it's the same thing.
Esperanto uses la u-modo (verb ending in -u) for the volative. To be precise you keep the main clause as such and use la u-modo in the ke-clause.
Mi vokis, ke li venu ĉi tien.
Note, that la u-modo estas timeless, i.e. it does not by itself express time in any way. The time gets determined only by the context, in this case the calling happened in the past (vokis), so must the coming also have happened in the past.
See PMEG for such ke-frazoj .
What I don't understand, why can't one just simply say
Mi vokis, ke li venas ĉi tien.
Another thing is, as I said, that according to my understanding in Esperanto these kinds of shortened clauses are restricted only to cases, when the verb in the main clause expresses purpose, will or possibility. In my native language, Finnish, there are lots of different kinds of non-finite clauses. The type, that seems to correspond to this Esperanto type, is something I would call (= my translation of the term) a referative non-finite clause, refera frazoekvivalento. However it is not limited to purpose, will or possibility, but rather often used with seeing or hearing or similar actions of perception.
Let's take an example.
Mi scias, ke ri posedas la rusan.
Such a sentence is very often shortened to (the bold shows the shortening)
Tiedän hänen osaavan venäjää.
Miascie ri posedas la rusan.
But Finnish has a couple past tenses (like English) , which can be combined to express order of actions in a sentence with a shortened clause. Let's say you have a sentence like
Naapuri näkyi lähteneen työhön.
The neighbour seemed to have left for work.
I.e. Someone, likely I myself, made in past an observation, that the neighbour had already left.
There is no way to express this in Esperanto using a shortened clause, but you have use a participle structure like in English.
La najbaro ŝajnis esti ekirinta al la/sia laboro
I had an interesting discussion of these frazoekvivalentoj with StefKo here in Lernu, and it appears, that Polish has also a more comprehensive system of shortened clauses. Since Z spoke Polish as one of his mother tongues, one may wonder, why the Esperanto system is so restricted (in lack of better word). Perhaps he thought, that it would be too complex.
Adverbs in Esperanto are very tightly associated with main verbs in a sentence – more than in many other languages. Thus in the sentence
Mi vokis al li venante ĉi tien
venante refers to vokis, which is an action performed by the subject (mi). So the sentence means
I called him, while I was coming (to) here.
I.e. I was coming and at the same time I called him.
If you want to express "I called him to come here", you need another construction than an adverb. What follows is one of the hardest parts of Esperanto, at least to me.
The English sentence "I called him to come here" actually contains a shortened clause or a non-finite clause. The full sentence is "I called, that he should come here", i.e. a main clause and a dependent clause. I don't know about English, but it appears, that in Esperanto you can make such shortened clauses only, when the verb in the main clause expresses purpose, will or possibility. The grammatical term for this is volative, volativo. In some languages it is called subjunctive, but it's the same thing.
Esperanto uses la u-modo (verb ending in -u) for the volative. To be precise you keep the main clause as such and use la u-modo in the ke-clause.
Mi vokis, ke li venu ĉi tien.
Note, that la u-modo estas timeless, i.e. it does not by itself express time in any way. The time gets determined only by the context, in this case the calling happened in the past (vokis), so must the coming also have happened in the past.
See PMEG for such ke-frazoj .
What I don't understand, why can't one just simply say
Mi vokis, ke li venas ĉi tien.
Another thing is, as I said, that according to my understanding in Esperanto these kinds of shortened clauses are restricted only to cases, when the verb in the main clause expresses purpose, will or possibility. In my native language, Finnish, there are lots of different kinds of non-finite clauses. The type, that seems to correspond to this Esperanto type, is something I would call (= my translation of the term) a referative non-finite clause, refera frazoekvivalento. However it is not limited to purpose, will or possibility, but rather often used with seeing or hearing or similar actions of perception.
Let's take an example.
Mi scias, ke ri posedas la rusan.
Such a sentence is very often shortened to (the bold shows the shortening)
Tiedän hänen osaavan venäjää.
Miascie ri posedas la rusan.
But Finnish has a couple past tenses (like English) , which can be combined to express order of actions in a sentence with a shortened clause. Let's say you have a sentence like
Naapuri näkyi lähteneen työhön.
The neighbour seemed to have left for work.
I.e. Someone, likely I myself, made in past an observation, that the neighbour had already left.
There is no way to express this in Esperanto using a shortened clause, but you have use a participle structure like in English.
La najbaro ŝajnis esti ekirinta al la/sia laboro
I had an interesting discussion of these frazoekvivalentoj with StefKo here in Lernu, and it appears, that Polish has also a more comprehensive system of shortened clauses. Since Z spoke Polish as one of his mother tongues, one may wonder, why the Esperanto system is so restricted (in lack of better word). Perhaps he thought, that it would be too complex.
ito (显示个人资料) 2019年9月6日下午12:57:29
Karaj samlingvanoj
Laŭ mia kompreno, "voki" mem havas la sencon "iel sciigi, ke li/ŝi devas veni".
- Oni vokis min al la kortego.(PIV)
- Li sendis voki la kuraciston.(PIV)
Oni povas aldoni iun vorton ekz. iri, veni, viziti, partopreni, gasti ks..(?)
- Mi ne estas vokita iri al la reĝo jam de tridek tagoj.(PIV)
Do la plej malgrasa frazo estas
- Mi vokis lin al ĉi tie.
rimarko: Ofte "voki lin" estas pli taŭga ol "voki al li", ĉar "voki al li" okaze signifas "li/ŝi devas iri al li. (?)
Ne kredu min mallertulon.
Laŭ mia kompreno, "voki" mem havas la sencon "iel sciigi, ke li/ŝi devas veni".
- Oni vokis min al la kortego.(PIV)
- Li sendis voki la kuraciston.(PIV)
Oni povas aldoni iun vorton ekz. iri, veni, viziti, partopreni, gasti ks..(?)
- Mi ne estas vokita iri al la reĝo jam de tridek tagoj.(PIV)
Do la plej malgrasa frazo estas
- Mi vokis lin al ĉi tie.
rimarko: Ofte "voki lin" estas pli taŭga ol "voki al li", ĉar "voki al li" okaze signifas "li/ŝi devas iri al li. (?)
Ne kredu min mallertulon.
sudanglo (显示个人资料) 2019年9月6日下午1:27:18
I called him to come here”La traduko kiu tuj saltis en mian menson estas Mi vokis ke li venu
Sed ĉar oni povas diri 'Mi petis lin veni', mi supozas ke oni ankaŭ povas diri 'Mi vokis lin veni'
What I don't understand, why can't one just simply say Mi vokis, ke li venas ĉi tien.Because the meaning would be something like I called out 'he is coming here'
Metsis (显示个人资料) 2019年9月8日下午2:37:02
ito:Karaj samlingvanojLaŭ PIV "voki" havas tri signifojn:
Laŭ mia kompreno, "voki" mem havas la sencon "iel sciigi, ke li/ŝi devas veni".
- Laŭtigi la voĉon, por turni al si ies atenton; ili vokis al la Eternulo k li ilin aŭskultis
- Laŭtigi la voĉon, por komprenigi al iu, ke li venu aŭ ion faru: mian sklavon mi vokas
- Iel sciigi al iu, ke li/ŝi devas veni; inviti: oni vokis min al la kortego
sudanglo:Mi kontrolis en PMEG, kiu parolas pri agoinfluaj ĉefverboj.
Sed ĉar oni povas diri 'Mi petis lin veni', mi supozas ke oni ankaŭ povas diri 'Mi vokis lin veni'
PMEG:Do, la propono de Urho estas plej taŭga, "Mi vokis lin veni ĉi tien".
Ĉe la agoinfluaj verboj inviti, voki kaj sendi la influata persono estas rekta objekto, dum la I-verbo rolas laŭsence kiel por-komplemento aŭ al-komplemento.
