Aportes: 60
Idioma: English
Metsis (Mostrar perfil) 10 de febrero de 2020 07:51:54
Ĉu vi legis mian skribaĵon de sur la unua paĝo?
La signifo de iĝ-verbo dependas de tio, kia la sen-iĝa verbo estas. PMEG listigas kvar kazojn.
Ekzemple enamiĝi apartenas al la unua grupo, ordinaraj IĜ-verboj.
- …ke vi enamiĝis en min
La dua grupo, iĝ-verboj faritaj el objektaj verboj, ankaŭ estas kutima. Mi ne posedas la francan, do mi ne scias, kiel oni esprimas la diferencon:
- (a) Li malfermas la pordon / (fi) Hän avaa oven / (en) He opens the door
- (b) La pordo malfermiĝas / (fi) Ovi avautuu / (en) The door opens
Metsis (Mostrar perfil) 10 de febrero de 2020 08:03:11
RiotNrrd:"Enamiĝi en iun" is natural to me. "Al iu" looks to me as an anglisism. Given that I agree with RiotNrrd, that "elamiĝi el iu" would grammar-wise denote ending of love, but I doubt, whether the expression would automatically understood. I would say something like "Ni ĉesis ami unu la alian".Altebrilas:"Enamiĝas.. en" estas akceptenda, ĉar Zamenhofa, sed ĝi aspektas iom stranga. Ĉu tio implicas, ke la esprimo "elamiĝi... el" validas pri la fino de la amado?That is precisely how I would take it.
sudanglo (Mostrar perfil) 10 de febrero de 2020 13:36:32
Enamiĝas.. en" estas akceptenda, ĉar Zamenhofa, sed ĝi aspektas iom stranga.Enamiĝi en seems to be archaic. Enamiĝi al (or je) would seem to be more modern.
Enamiĝi en iun" is natural to me. "Al iu" looks to me as an anglisism. alian".
Metsis enamiĝi al can't be an Anglicism. In English we say fall in love with - which is presumably why the Kukolo search gave so many hits for amiĝi kun.
Anyway, the Tekstaro search gave no hits for amiĝi - plenty of hits for enamiĝi.
In what context you would want to use amiĝi instead of the traditional form enamiĝi, I really can't think
nornen (Mostrar perfil) 10 de febrero de 2020 17:21:57
Our friendship turned into love.
Espels (Mostrar perfil) 11 de febrero de 2020 10:05:52
nornen:Nia amikeco amigxis.Shouldn't be
Our friendship turned into love.
Our friendship became loved. - We love our friendship now, recently we (or someone else) hated that we were friends, but now it is Ok.
I mean "ami" is a verb root. It's not a noun or an adj. root. In this way it can't be changing to new state.
Espels (Mostrar perfil) 11 de febrero de 2020 10:06:41
Se ha ocultado el mensaje.
Metsis (Mostrar perfil) 12 de febrero de 2020 12:30:12
Espels:Take a look at PMEG. There Wennergren has among examples of ordinaraj iĝ-verboj the verb sidiĝi, whose root sid/ has verb-like, verbial character. Many iĝ-verbs based on verbial roots have the same meaning as the prefix ek-, i.e. sidiĝi = eksidi. The "problem" with amiĝi is, that it doesn't mean "to fall in love", but what Nornen said, something change to love. Nia amikeco amiĝis contains the idea, that previously our relationship based on friendship, now on love. It may not be most natural or idiomatic way to express the idea, but it is correct both grammatically and semantically.nornen:Nia amikeco amigxis.Shouldn't be
Our friendship turned into love.
Our friendship became loved. - We love our friendship now, recently we (or someone else) hated that we were friends, but now it is Ok.
I mean "ami" is a verb root. It's not a noun or an adj. root. In this way it can't be changing to new state.
So there is nothing inherited, which would prevent verbial roots to be used in iĝ-verbs as long as the meaning is, what follows from the grammar.
Espels (Mostrar perfil) 12 de febrero de 2020 14:32:54
Metsis:I see what you mean, but cant understand this thing:Espels:Take a look at PMEG. There Wennergren has among examples of ordinaraj iĝ-verboj the verb sidiĝi, whose root sid/ has verb-like, verbial character. Many iĝ-verbs based on verbial roots have the same meaning as the prefix ek-, i.e. sidiĝi = eksidi. The "problem" with amiĝi is, that it doesn't mean "to fall in love", but what Nornen said, something change to love. Nia amikeco amiĝis contains the idea, that previously our relationship based on friendship, now on love. It may not be most natural or idiomatic way to express the idea, but it is correct both grammatically and semantically.nornen:Nia amikeco amigxis.Shouldn't be
Our friendship turned into love.
Our friendship became loved. - We love our friendship now, recently we (or someone else) hated that we were friends, but now it is Ok.
I mean "ami" is a verb root. It's not a noun or an adj. root. In this way it can't be changing to new state.
So there is nothing inherited, which would prevent verbial roots to be used in iĝ-verbs as long as the meaning is, what follows from the grammar.
There is a direct grammar rule that says:
" Tr. verb + iĝ, IĜ doesn't indicate transition from one state to another. IĜ there only serves to make the verb intransitive, to change its role in the sentence."
Why can someone say it does not work with all verbs, some verbs work like noun.
Me fermas la pordo.
La pordo fermiĝas.
Why can't this pattern work with "ami"?
Me amas ŝin.
Ŝi amigxas.
To me it seems pretty logic, even if it sounds less natural to you. If we use it for transition from one state to another (as you said) it would be not correct with grammar.
sergejm (Mostrar perfil) 12 de febrero de 2020 17:21:24
Espels, you are from Russia, so I think you know Russian.
Mi fermas la pordon - La pordo fermiĝas.
Я закрыл дверь - Дверь закрылась.
Mi amas ŝin - Mi (ne ŝi!) enamiĝis.
Я люблю её - Я (не она!) влюбился.
iĝ laboras simile al la rusa ся!
iĝ works as Russian ся!
There is no patterns in Esperanto as in programming language!
Metsis (Mostrar perfil) 12 de febrero de 2020 20:35:32
Mi jam kredis, ke la afero devas esti simpla en la rusa.