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od PrimeMinisterK, 12. april 2020

Sporočila: 111

Jezik: Esperanto

Altebrilas (Prikaži profil) 18. april 2020 14:07:03

It means "translate from english", but the problem is elsewhere. Look at the endings.

Altebrilas (Prikaži profil) 18. april 2020 14:23:34

About "la".

In my native language, french, like in many others, definite article is used to check that when I speak about an object, you have one and only one in mind.
Mi kunportis sandviĉojn por la tagmanĝo.
If you have none or several lunches in mind, you may ask:
- Kiu ( Kies )tagmanĝo?

Your question will have the same effect as a computer error message. It allows the speaker to be sure that the listener follows him.

Metsis (Prikaži profil) 18. april 2020 20:20:00

PrimeMinisterK:
Thanks for the thoughtful explanation.

Yeah, that does give me trouble. Sometimes sentences in Esperanto do seem chaotic and jumbled beyond recognition as a coherent thought, and I think the word order definitely tripped me up here.
Yes, as Sudanglo pointed out, English is strictly SVO and the word order carries the meaning (that strict word order causes a lot of things that non-native speakers may find hard to understand). Esperanto prefers explicit marking by use of prepositions and the two cases (nominative and accusative), which liberates Esperanto from a strict word order and indeed makes it more approachable for many.

See also my earlier posting here in Lernu.

PrimeMinisterK (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 02:37:40

Altebrilas:It means "tranlate from english", but the problem is elsewhere. Look at the endings.
Cool, thanks for that. I edited my post.

The problem I take it is the -n on Doktoro, right?

PrimeMinisterK (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 02:39:48

Altebrilas:About "la".

In my native language, french, like in many others, definite article is used to check that when I speak about an object, you have one and only one in mind.
Mi kunportis sandviĉojn por la tagmanĝo.
If you have none or several lunches in mind, you may ask:
- Kiu ( Kies )tagmanĝo?

Your question will have the same effect as a computer error message. It allows the speaker to be sure that the listener follows him.
Hmm, okay. That makes some sense. I think I'm going to have to pay attention to further examples in my reading to really start internalizing in my mind when, and when not, to use "la."

PrimeMinisterK (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 02:57:49

Metsis:
PrimeMinisterK:
Thanks for the thoughtful explanation.

Yeah, that does give me trouble. Sometimes sentences in Esperanto do seem chaotic and jumbled beyond recognition as a coherent thought, and I think the word order definitely tripped me up here.
Yes, as Sudanglo pointed out, English is strictly SVO and the word order carries the meaning (that strict word order causes a lot of things that non-native speakers may find hard to understand). Esperanto prefers explicit marking by use of prepositions and the two cases (nominative and accusative), which liberates Esperanto from a strict word order and indeed makes it more approachable for many.

See also my earlier posting here in Lernu.
Okay, cool. I'll go through that thread when I have a bit more time and can translate it all.

I think the accusative is going to continue to plague me and trip me up for a little while yet. But my hope is that after repeated usage it will start to feel natural and I'll automatically known where to put all my -Ns without having to deeply ponder it (and then still get it wrong half the time), and that reading Esperanto will be a less laborious task.

Altebrilas (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 09:56:43

About "tial" and "do":

La ĵurnalisto skribis:
La murdinto verŝis venenon en la glason de la Grafino. Tial ŝi mortis kun egaj ventrodoloroj.

La policisto diris:
La grafino mortis kun doloregoj ĉe la ventro. Do iu venenigis ŝin.

La unua estas materia konsekvenco, la dua estas logika. Oni povas elmontri tion tiumaniere:
Veras, ke la grafino mortis kun doloregoj ĉe la ventro. Tial, veras ke iu venenigis ŝin.

(pardonon pri mia ĵusa malkrokodilado)
In current speech, "she died" and "it is true that she died" are synonymous. But not when you add logical connectors.

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 11:01:07

So then the problem is the -n on Doktoro. Zamenhof translated the book, the book didn't translate Zamenhof.
You're getting there - but perhaps only 8 out of ten for this answer.

A model answer would have highlighted the syntactic problem - that the test sentence appears to have two direct objects and no subject - which becomes very clear if your re-arrange it thus - 'Elangligis la libron D-ron Zamenhof'.

No reference is required to the meaning of the sentence. eg it's nonsense because books can't translate people. And it can't mean that anyway.

Post Skribo:

A subtlety that you will come across later is apozicio which does allow, as it were, two direct objects.

Lasu ke mi prezentu al vi D-ron Zamenhof, la inventinton de Esperanto

sergejm (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 11:19:26

Elangligis la libron D-ron Zamenhof
Zamenhof translated from English the book with title "Doctor".

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 19. april 2020 12:20:53

sergejm:
Elangligis la libron D-ron Zamenhof
Zamenhof translated from English the book with title "Doctor".
Kurioze - mi ĵus aldonis supre (en posta skibo) komenton kaj ligilon pri apozicio/nominacio.

Kiel oni certigas al la leganto, ke estis Zamenhof kiu tradukis la libron kun tiu stranga titolo 'D-ron' . Almenaŭ vi bezonas citilojn aŭ alian trukon.

Cetere , kiu estas preferinda - 1. 'Elangligis la Ŝekspiraĵon Hamleto' aŭ 2. Elangligis la Ŝekspirajon, Hamleton?

Pensu pri la diferenco inter Ĉu vi konas la urbon Parizo? kaj Ĉu vi konas Parizon, la ĉefurbon de Francujo?

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