Berichten: 14
Taal: English
sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 14 april 2020 11:59:30
I wonder sometimes if the fantastic resources available to novbakitaj esperantistoj are really appreciated (or regularly consulted). From time to time, I see questions from newbies and think - well couldn't you have looked that up; you have all these resources at your fingertips which weren't available in my day.
For example, there was a thread recently that involved the word for battery charger (which is ŝargilo not ŝarĝilo). Now, putting battery charger into Google Translate and selecting Esperanto immediately spits out the correct term.
But suppose you have doubts about the reliability of GT. You could think well there's bound to be an article in Wikipedia, and there is. And on any Wikipedia (article) page, there are links(look left) to corresponding articles in other language versions of Wikipedia. It might take two clicks to find Vikipedio (the Esperanto version) but in a trice you are transported here.
And if you still have doubts, you can pop over to vortaro.net and enter ŝargi which takes you here and reading definition 3 you can be confident about ŝargilo as a good translation of charger even though it might not be specifically listed in PIV.
If you are further wondering about usage you can go to Tekstaro.com (selected texts from good authors) and find a highly relevant quote (remember to click on search result to get expanded context). Or go to Kukolo to search the net for incidences of ŝargilo(j)(n).
Incidentally that kukolo search will throw up a link to Glosbe where you find all sorts of examples of usage.
For example, there was a thread recently that involved the word for battery charger (which is ŝargilo not ŝarĝilo). Now, putting battery charger into Google Translate and selecting Esperanto immediately spits out the correct term.
But suppose you have doubts about the reliability of GT. You could think well there's bound to be an article in Wikipedia, and there is. And on any Wikipedia (article) page, there are links(look left) to corresponding articles in other language versions of Wikipedia. It might take two clicks to find Vikipedio (the Esperanto version) but in a trice you are transported here.
And if you still have doubts, you can pop over to vortaro.net and enter ŝargi which takes you here and reading definition 3 you can be confident about ŝargilo as a good translation of charger even though it might not be specifically listed in PIV.
If you are further wondering about usage you can go to Tekstaro.com (selected texts from good authors) and find a highly relevant quote (remember to click on search result to get expanded context). Or go to Kukolo to search the net for incidences of ŝargilo(j)(n).
Incidentally that kukolo search will throw up a link to Glosbe where you find all sorts of examples of usage.
PrimeMinisterK (Profiel tonen) 15 april 2020 06:55:46
sudanglo:I wonder sometimes if the fantastic resources available to novbakitaj esperantistoj are really appreciated (or regularly consulted). From time to time, I see questions from newbies and think - well couldn't you have looked that up; you have all these resources at your fingertips which weren't available in my day.Oh, you mustn't be so hard on us beginners. Sometimes we don't know about these resources, and sometimes what we're looking for isn't easily found in the resources we're aware of. And sometimes we can find what we're looking for, but even then the teaching isn't clear and we need an interactive human to explain it to us.
sudanglo:And if you still have doubts, you can pop over to vortaro.net and enter ŝargi which takes you here and reading definition 3 you can be confident about ŝargilo as a good translation of charger even though it might not be specifically listed in PIV.Here's a case in point of not knowing. I was not familiar with this site, but since you point it out, I actually did just use it to find a meaning that I hadn't been able to find anywhere else.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've been getting some reading practice in by reading through La Sankta Biblio (one painstaking sentence at a time). Today I ran across the phrase "virina ordinaraĵo." I went to bab.la and searched for "ordinaraĵo" and didn't find it. The dictionary here doesn't have it either. I tend not to trust Google translate, but I gave that a shot too and it also didn't know what the hell I was talking about.
Vortaro.net had it though. I will keep this site in mind because there have actually been a handful of terms I've run across in La Sankta Biblio that the dictionaries didn't recognize.
So thanks.
Metsis (Profiel tonen) 16 april 2020 08:04:10
Let's recap the resources.
Akademio de Esperanto (AdE) is the most authoritative source of the language, but they work in their own pace and therefore probably does not contain words for very new things.
Plena Ilustrita Vortaro (PIV) is the second in authority. PIV is the source to check for case government, i.e. what grammatical case or preposition goes into what expression. However some have criticised it for having an agenda of its own (I don't know what).
Reta Vortaro (ReVo) is a good comparative source to PIV, since it is more open to actual language use and is updated more frequently. It has translations to other languages, but it varies from entry to entry to which languages. I can't say about the quality of the translations, but I assume they're good.
The dictionary of Reta vortaro is used (at least) in mobile applications PoŝReVo (iOS) and PReVo (Android), but I think the dictionary is built-in into them and being less frequently updated, they are not on par with the site.
Plena manlibro de Esperanta gramatiko (PMEG) is the ultimate grammar reference in practice. Very thorough… and completely in Esperanto, which makes it very hard for komencantoj. But once you master enough, it is the must source for the grammar.
Tekstaro is a searchable collection of works by Zamenhof (all) and some early authors (e.g. KaBe). It also contains new texts from highly regarded sources, e.g. Monato. As of speaking Tekstaro contains a little over 10 million words.
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How to use the resources?
If you need a dictionary in your language, use the dictionary here in Lernu or Google's translator to get a rough list of alternatives (both contain outright errors). Check against PIV and/or ReVo for the meaning and the case government of a word. PIV's examples carry you a long way to construct simple sentences. If you need more complex, look up in PMEG for ways to express things.
IMHO many articles in Monato are overwhelmingly complex and suffer from writing heat, i.e. the writer has spun themself into such rounds that the text has turned to gibberish.
Akademio de Esperanto (AdE) is the most authoritative source of the language, but they work in their own pace and therefore probably does not contain words for very new things.
Plena Ilustrita Vortaro (PIV) is the second in authority. PIV is the source to check for case government, i.e. what grammatical case or preposition goes into what expression. However some have criticised it for having an agenda of its own (I don't know what).
Reta Vortaro (ReVo) is a good comparative source to PIV, since it is more open to actual language use and is updated more frequently. It has translations to other languages, but it varies from entry to entry to which languages. I can't say about the quality of the translations, but I assume they're good.
The dictionary of Reta vortaro is used (at least) in mobile applications PoŝReVo (iOS) and PReVo (Android), but I think the dictionary is built-in into them and being less frequently updated, they are not on par with the site.
Plena manlibro de Esperanta gramatiko (PMEG) is the ultimate grammar reference in practice. Very thorough… and completely in Esperanto, which makes it very hard for komencantoj. But once you master enough, it is the must source for the grammar.
Tekstaro is a searchable collection of works by Zamenhof (all) and some early authors (e.g. KaBe). It also contains new texts from highly regarded sources, e.g. Monato. As of speaking Tekstaro contains a little over 10 million words.
####
How to use the resources?
If you need a dictionary in your language, use the dictionary here in Lernu or Google's translator to get a rough list of alternatives (both contain outright errors). Check against PIV and/or ReVo for the meaning and the case government of a word. PIV's examples carry you a long way to construct simple sentences. If you need more complex, look up in PMEG for ways to express things.
IMHO many articles in Monato are overwhelmingly complex and suffer from writing heat, i.e. the writer has spun themself into such rounds that the text has turned to gibberish.
PrimeMinisterK (Profiel tonen) 16 april 2020 10:57:59
Those look like some great resources, Metsis. I will definitely check all those out.
This is my contribution:
http://novajhoj.weebly.com/pri-studio.html
It's a website someone else directed me to that's cataloged a ton of media in Esperanto.
Does anyone have any podcast suggestions? The only one I know about is kern.punkto (kern.punkto.info). I try to listen to it but I am only able to catch a word here and there, so any podcasts where they speak a little more slowly would be great. (I'll take fast talking ones too though, because I know eventually I'll be able to understand them.)
This is my contribution:
http://novajhoj.weebly.com/pri-studio.html
It's a website someone else directed me to that's cataloged a ton of media in Esperanto.
Does anyone have any podcast suggestions? The only one I know about is kern.punkto (kern.punkto.info). I try to listen to it but I am only able to catch a word here and there, so any podcasts where they speak a little more slowly would be great. (I'll take fast talking ones too though, because I know eventually I'll be able to understand them.)
sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 16 april 2020 12:50:44
And don't forget You Tube.
Lot's of songs in Esperanto with text, and full length lectures from eminent Esperantists. You need to be selective though.
Isn't this charming? And this haunting
Posta skribo:
La sekva mesaĝo donas la ligilon por VikiKantaro. Tio estas nova por mi. Do mi tre dankas la mesaĝinton. Aparte plaĉa estas tio, ke oni vidas samtempe la videon kaj la tutan tekston de la kanto.
Lot's of songs in Esperanto with text, and full length lectures from eminent Esperantists. You need to be selective though.
Isn't this charming? And this haunting
Posta skribo:
La sekva mesaĝo donas la ligilon por VikiKantaro. Tio estas nova por mi. Do mi tre dankas la mesaĝinton. Aparte plaĉa estas tio, ke oni vidas samtempe la videon kaj la tutan tekston de la kanto.
sergejm (Profiel tonen) 17 april 2020 04:34:12
opajpoaj (Profiel tonen) 17 april 2020 08:30:26
http://www.simplavortaro.org/ ("estas vort-far-ad-il-o. Oni povas serĉi vortfaradaĵojn kaj La Simpla Vortaro provas diveni la derivadon. Ĉi tio iufoje inkluzivas sensencajn derivadojn, sed ĝi provas diveni la plej verŝajnan eblecon.")
PrimeMinisterK (Profiel tonen) 18 april 2020 06:42:37
Metsis:What do you mean by that exactly, and why do you feel the editors don't work to finesse the articles?
IMHO many articles in Monato are overwhelmingly complex and suffer from writing heat, i.e. the writer has spun themself into such rounds that the text has turned to gibberish.
I would think that anyone who is actually getting published would be crafting clean and polished prose.
Metsis (Profiel tonen) 18 april 2020 19:18:22
Monato is a monthly journal with articles about economics, environment, politics etc. It covers la movado, if they think an article is of interest to non-insiders. Think it as Der Spiegel or the Time magazine of Esperantujo.
I'm not sure to which extent, but I can well imagine that articles are edited. Whether it is a chosen editorial policy or because of limited editorial resources, but there are articles written in an overly complex way. You may write about difficult and complex topics, like the climat change, and good so, but I find it counterproductive to write in such a manner that you must master Esperanto at an extremely high level to understand some of the articles.
What I mean by overly complex? The articles have lots of compound verbs incl. esti-pasivo (instead of the way simpler oni-pasivo), adverbaj participoj (words ending in -inte, -ante, -onte, -ite, -ate and -ote). Sentences can be long and do not go directly from known to new things, but jump between levels and contain many loose explanations. Of course not all articles are written this way, there are good and concise articles using language most Esperantists understand, but inexcusably many are needlessly obscurely written.
I'm not sure to which extent, but I can well imagine that articles are edited. Whether it is a chosen editorial policy or because of limited editorial resources, but there are articles written in an overly complex way. You may write about difficult and complex topics, like the climat change, and good so, but I find it counterproductive to write in such a manner that you must master Esperanto at an extremely high level to understand some of the articles.
What I mean by overly complex? The articles have lots of compound verbs incl. esti-pasivo (instead of the way simpler oni-pasivo), adverbaj participoj (words ending in -inte, -ante, -onte, -ite, -ate and -ote). Sentences can be long and do not go directly from known to new things, but jump between levels and contain many loose explanations. Of course not all articles are written this way, there are good and concise articles using language most Esperantists understand, but inexcusably many are needlessly obscurely written.
PrimeMinisterK (Profiel tonen) 19 april 2020 02:32:18
Metsis:Monato is a monthly journal with articles about economics, environment, politics etc. It covers la movado, if they think an article is of interest to non-insiders. Think it as Der Spiegel or the Time magazine of Esperantujo.Indeed. Well thanks for the explanation.
I'm not sure to which extent, but I can well imagine that articles are edited. Whether it is a chosen editorial policy or because of limited editorial resources, but there are articles written in an overly complex way. You may write about difficult and complex topics, like the climat change, and good so, but I find it counterproductive to write in such a manner that you must master Esperanto at an extremely high level to understand some of the articles.
What I mean by overly complex? The articles have lots of compound verbs incl. esti-pasivo (instead of the way simpler oni-pasivo), adverbaj participoj (words ending in -inte, -ante, -onte, -ite, -ate and -ote). Sentences can be long and do not go directly from known to new things, but jump between levels and contain many loose explanations. Of course not all articles are written this way, there are good and concise articles using language most Esperantists understand, but inexcusably many are needlessly obscurely written.
I understand that Kontakto is more the beginner's magazine, and I think it's also geared toward a younger audience, is that right?