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Can you differentiate aesthetically-pleasing Esperanto from more workman-like Esperanto?

de PrimeMinisterK, 2020-aprilo-24

Mesaĝoj: 57

Lingvo: English

nornen (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-29 16:00:19

I should probably brush up on my basic English grammar.
This reflects the most awesome part about studying foreign languages: You are forces to analyse your own language and to stop taking (linguistic) shi* for granted. Your brain is being pried wide open with a linguistic crowbar.

​„Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen“ --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Maximen und Reflexionen (1833).
"He, who does not know foreign languages, does not know a thing about his own."

Once you start to study foreign languages, a lot of questions and doubts about your own will assault you out of nowhere. For instance, you surely have said quite often "I'm well." when asked about your general condition. Now that you've learned about adverbs in Esperanto you might perhaps ask yourself: "Wait what? Why "well"? This is an adverb, the adverb of "good" to be precise. But I don't say "I'm sickly" or "I'm happily", so why do I say "I'm well" when I want to say "I'm in good health". This is the linguistic crowbar. Then you start examining your own language, go to some online English dictionary and find out something new: "Well" is not only the adverb of "good", but it is also an adjective with the meaning "in good health". Now you know that the wells in "Well said." and "I'm well" are actually two different words, the first being an adverb, the latter being an adjective.

PrimeMinisterK (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-29 20:47:08

RiotNrrd:Because I'm like, "What's a preposition again?"

Yes, they are a core concept in Esperanto, to the extent that the prepositions comprise part of the handful of words that are defined in the original sixteen rules of the language along with the numbers, the -aŭ words, the pronouns, etc. They are so important that if you have not memorized them yet, then you should go do that right now.

The reason Esperanto can get away with only two cases (nominative and accusative) is because of the prepositions. They do the heavy lifting that cases do in many other languages.
Okay, okay, fine. I will go learn all the propositions.

But since you bring up cases, I'll also mention that I don't know what a "case" is either. People talk about the "nominative case" and the "accusative case." Case means nothing to me. Nominative means nothing to me. Accusative means something just because I have learned about having to sprinkle Ns about, when appropriate.

PrimeMinisterK (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-29 20:49:55

nornen:
I should probably brush up on my basic English grammar.
This reflects the most awesome part about studying foreign languages: You are forces to analyse your own language and to stop taking (linguistic) shi* for granted. Your brain is being pried wide open with a linguistic crowbar.

​„Wer fremde Sprachen nicht kennt, weiß nichts von seiner eigenen“ --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Maximen und Reflexionen (1833).
"He, who does not know foreign languages, does not know a thing about his own."

Once you start to study foreign languages, a lot of questions and doubts about your own will assault you out of nowhere. For instance, you surely have said quite often "I'm well." when asked about your general condition. Now that you've learned about adverbs in Esperanto you might perhaps ask yourself: "Wait what? Why "well"? This is an adverb, the adverb of "good" to be precise. But I don't say "I'm sickly" or "I'm happily", so why do I say "I'm well" when I want to say "I'm in good health". This is the linguistic crowbar. Then you start examining your own language, go to some online English dictionary and find out something new: "Well" is not only the adverb of "good", but it is also an adjective with the meaning "in good health". Now you know that the wells in "Well said." and "I'm well" are actually two different words, the first being an adverb, the latter being an adjective.
You know, I think I've experienced a hint of this already. There have been times of late when I've been writing something in English and it's become very clear that I could never explain WHY I have structured my sentence in such a way or why it works; I only know that it DOES work. It's weird, because at times what I'm writing has almost started to feel like gibberish, because I have no logical rationale for writing it in exactly the way that I have. I just know that it FEELS right.

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 07:50:16

PrimeMinisterK:
But since you bring up cases, I'll also mention that I don't know what a "case" is either. People talk about the "nominative case" and the "accusative case." Case means nothing to me. Nominative means nothing to me. Accusative means something just because I have learned about having to sprinkle Ns about, when appropriate.
See a Youtube video.

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 07:50:16

La mesaĝo estas kaŝita.

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 11:17:53

But since you bring up cases, I'll also mention that I don't know what a "case" is either...

... and I haven't lifted a finger to remedy that situation is the implied conclusion to that thought.

This is a learning site. If someone is talking about a word you don't recognize, and they use it a lot, and it seems directly applicable to the subject at hand, the best course of action isn't to loudly proclaim ones ignorance of that word. The best course of action is probably to look the word up. I mean, if you're in an interactive conversation with them, looking stuff up isn't quite as convenient, and so asking them to define their terms is fine, but in written posts we have search options behind the scenes available to us that we might want to take advantage of, and all the time in the world to use those options before we write our next post.

Now, if you look something up and still don't understand it, then we're happy to answer any questions. But you've got to do some of the footwork yourself. Just saying "I don't know what this is ", and then leaving it at that, will be more of an obstacle to your learning than a help.

I mean, yes, one of us could explain what a case is. But making a lot of effort explaining absolute fundamentals feels like a waste of time. There's lots of such explanations out there that probably do a better job than we would, and they're a basic concept of language construction, so it's not really something super technical. When you run across a term like this, look it up first, and then ask questions if you have questions about what you found.

It might sound like I'm upbraiding you a little here. I am not. Following this advice will increase your learning speed and breadth of knowledge dramatically. It will also give the people who are trying to teach you something the impression that you are at least trying to meet them halfway.

PrimeMinisterK (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 18:39:13

RiotNrrd:But since you bring up cases, I'll also mention that I don't know what a "case" is either...

... and I haven't lifted a finger to remedy that situation is the implied conclusion to that thought.

This is a learning site. If someone is talking about a word you don't recognize, and they use it a lot, and it seems directly applicable to the subject at hand, the best course of action isn't to loudly proclaim ones ignorance of that word. The best course of action is probably to look the word up. I mean, if you're in an interactive conversation with them, looking stuff up isn't quite as convenient, and so asking them to define their terms is fine, but in written posts we have search options behind the scenes available to us that we might want to take advantage of, and all the time in the world to use those options before we write our next post.

Now, if you look something up and still don't understand it, then we're happy to answer any questions. But you've got to do some of the footwork yourself. Just saying "I don't know what this is ", and then leaving it at that, will be more of an obstacle to your learning than a help.

I mean, yes, one of us could explain what a case is. But making a lot of effort explaining absolute fundamentals feels like a waste of time. There's lots of such explanations out there that probably do a better job than we would, and they're a basic concept of language construction, so it's not really something super technical. When you run across a term like this, look it up first, and then ask questions if you have questions about what you found.

It might sound like I'm upbraiding you a little here. I am not. Following this advice will increase your learning speed and breadth of knowledge dramatically. It will also give the people who are trying to teach you something the impression that you are at least trying to meet them halfway.
Let us be clear about something:

I have been spending an average of about four hours a day, every day, for the past month working on Esperanto. I have put so much time and effort into trying to learn this language that I feel like my brain is overflowing. It's like a glass that has had so much liquid poured into it that now the liquid is just spilling out over the edges. I have been working harder at this than I have worked on anything in a long time.

I did look up some information on the subject of cases. What I read was not immediately understandable and so I earmarked it for further study later on. There is an order of operations to my study plan: Put all my attention into finishing my course instead of going too far down any side roads, then once the course is done I'll be free to pursue other avenues. Of course if it's something that looks very simple and like I can gain an understanding in just a few minutes, I will go out and read up on something outside the course, but when I looked at the information about cases it looked to me like something that would require some real study to fully grasp.

So if I sound slightly resentful at the insinuation that somehow I haven't been trying hard enough, or putting in enough effort, you know why. I can understand where you're coming from, though. There actually has been a lot of stuff I've gone out and looked up due to our discussions here.

Incidentally, I actually finished the course last night. I can't claim to actually understand it all. I feel more like I have simply gained my first exposure to about 75% of its concepts than I have actually gained a proficiency in those concepts, but I guess it's a start.

PrimeMinisterK (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 18:58:50

Metsis:
See a Youtube video.
Thanks. That at least gives me a basic understanding of the concept.

I think there is something about the word "case" here that's a little confusing to me, but I think I get it. When a word gets changed to indicate some particular function it's referred to as being "in the ________ case."

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 20:14:47

Let us be clear about something

Consider me clarified.

PrimeMinisterK (Montri la profilon) 2020-aprilo-30 22:22:24

RiotNrrd:Let us be clear about something

Consider me clarified.
Reading back over my response, it sounds like it may come off as overly-harsh. It's only because the perceived insinuation that perhaps I have not been working hard enough struck a blow. Of course I do appreciate everyone's help here.

In any event, as I said, I have finished my course, so now I can take some time to go read up on cases. And then I have three more courses at my disposal.

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