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Names, shorthand, and interjections

של PrimeMinisterK, 25 באפריל 2020

הודעות: 30

שפה: English

PrimeMinisterK (הצגת פרופיל) 25 באפריל 2020, 07:13:48

So I had an idea today. I thought I would find a short story--one that is a good story, but not overly complex and not exceptionally long--and start trying to translate it. Then as my understanding of the language improves I can repeatedly revise my translation until, eventually, hopefully, it will be excellent and without error.

Just the the other night I was listening to a podcast where the host just reads classic stories and the story in this case was The Most Dangerous Game. It seemed like it might be a good story for this task, and I found a PDF here:

http://www.dukeofdefinition.com/dangerous_game.pdf

And I got to work tonight on my first wave of translation, completing most of the first page.

I ran into some roadblocks though. Maybe you guys can clue me on what to do about these.

1. Names. How exactly does one handle names, if it's not a common name with a known and accepted translation like "Johano"? For instance, in this story we have a character named Whitney and a character named Rainsford. How do I handle that?

2. Shorthand/incomplete sentences. This question is also extremely relevant to the previously assigned task of translating Dracula (which apparently no one was interested in). How is shorthand handled?

In the story, for example, Whitney says something about an island that supposedly exists out there in the dark of night and Rainsford replies, "Can't see it." In Esperanto, can you say, "Ne vidas ĝin," or does the language just not work that way?

3. Interjections. We also find various interjections used by the characters, such as "Ugh!" and "Bah!" Are there equivalents to these words in Eo?

sergejm (הצגת פרופיל) 25 באפריל 2020, 07:30:23

Both "can't see it" and "ne vidas ĝin" are incomplete.
But Russian "не вижу" and similar Spanish "lo veo" are complete.
So if you translate from Russian or Spanish you must add "mi".

Interjections exist in Esperanto: "Uf!", "Ba!"

PrimeMinisterK (הצגת פרופיל) 25 באפריל 2020, 07:47:56

sergejm:Both "can't see it" and "ne vidas ĝin" are incomplete.
But Russian "не вижу" and similar Spanish "lo veo" are complete.
So if you translate from Russian or Spanish you must add "mi".

Interjections exist in Esperanto: "Uf!", "Ba!"
Well "can't see it" is incomplete, but in English at least, it's not forbidden. We see it used in this story. So it's an incomplete sentence, but it can be used in dialogue because in real life that's how people often talk.

Think of a dialogue that goes something like this.

Person A: What's up?
Person B: Oh, not much.
A: Did you go to the store today?
B: Nah, didn't feel like it. Might go tomorrow.
A: Oh, okay. Well what are you up to tonight?
B: Oh you know, the usual. Just hanging out. Watching some TV and playing with the dog.

The fragmentary nature of the dialogue, I would say, is part of its essence.

So you can translate "Can't see it" as "Mi ne vidis ĝin," but the issue I would say, from a translator's perspective, is that you're losing the fragmentary aspect of the source material. So while the meaning is preserved, some of it's literary quality is lost.

Metsis (הצגת פרופיל) 25 באפריל 2020, 18:57:49

There are a couple of ways to esperantize names depending on what kind of name we are talking about. See my answer in Duolingo (I go there by name Juha_Metsakallas). For a story I would choose Esperanto-names which don't need to be pronunciation based from the originals.

Wikipedia has a short list of interjections. I remember having seen a longer somewhere, but I can't recall it now.

While leaving a pronoun out might not be a good idea like Sergejm said, you could translate "Can't see it" as "Mi ne (vidas)" in a dialog following a sentence: "Estas insulo tie. Ĉu vi vidas?"

PrimeMinisterK (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 02:56:26

Metsis:There are a couple of ways to esperantize names depending on what kind of name we are talking about. See my answer in Duolingo (I go there by name Juha_Metsakallas). For a story I would choose Esperanto-names which don't need to be pronunciation based from the originals.
I'm not sure I want to go with names that have no connection to their original counterparts.

I got curious and looked to see how other authors handled this. Here are a few instances:

1. The Count of Monte Cristo. The translator chose not to Esperantize the names at all and just ported the names over directly. For instance, Edmond Dantès in the Esperanto translation is still Edmond Dantès. And Mr. Morrell is Sinjoro Morrell.

I was a bit surprised to see that the original names were retained, but then I looked at the translation of 1984.

2. 1984. Winston Smith is Winston Smith. Again, no Esperantizing of the names. Hmm, interesting.

3. A Christmas Carol. Well, Scrooge and Marley are Scrooge and Marley. That's it. Once again, the original names are retained and left intact.

4. Fellowship of the Ring. Weirdly, it seems that some names are Esperantized but not others. Frodo is still Frodo, but Gandalf receives an -o and becomes Gandalfo. Elrond becomes Elrondo. But Sam is still just Sam and Tom is still just Tom.

5. The Time Machine. Again, like in the first three translations, there is no Esperantization of the names. Simon Newcomb is Simon Newcomb in the Eo version of the book.

6. The Wizard of Oz. The names are Esperantized. Dorothy becomes Doroteo.

So of the six that I looked at, four of them keep the original non-Eo names intact and just leave it at that, while two Esperantize the names.

Just going by these examples, it seems that for Whitney and Rainsford, I could either just stick with Whitney and Rainsford, or I could go with something like Vitneo and Reinsfordo.

Metsis:Wikipedia has a short list of interjections. I remember having seen a longer somewhere, but I can't recall it now.
Cool, thanks.

I also found this:

http://esperanto.davidgsimpson.com/eo-interjection...

Metsis:While leaving a pronoun out might not be a good idea like Sergejm said, you could translate "Can't see it" as "Mi ne (vidas)" in a dialog following a sentence: "Estas insulo tie. Ĉu vi vidas?"
Hmm. Okay.

Let me ask you, how would you handle the dialogue that I posted earlier if you were translating that? Would you just worry about preserving the shorthand nature of it, or would you come up with a creative solution?

sergejm (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 03:53:32

it seems that for Whitney and Rainsford, I could go with something like Witneo and Reinsfordo.
No. There is no letter W in Esperanto. So Vitneo. You changed in Rainsford 'ai' to 'ei', but it sounds 'ej'. So Rejnsfordo.
6. The Wizard of Oz. The names are Esperantized. Dorothy becomes Doroteo.
Tin Woodman became Stana Lignohakisto, not Lada Lignohakisto - I don't know why.

PrimeMinisterK (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 03:57:52

sergejm:
No. There is no letter W in Esperanto. So Vitneo. You changed in Rainsford 'ai' to 'ei', but it sounds 'ej'. So Rejnsfordo.
Oh yeah, I guess that's right about there being no W.

I though about using j for Rainsford, but I guess my issue there is that the -j feels silent, and there are no silent letters in Esperanto, to my understanding.

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 12:35:50

There are domains in which there is no body of actual usage in Esperanto which you can draw upon to give authenticity.

For example, there are no cops and robbers or courtrooms in Esperantujo , So translating a roman policier the translator has to conjure up suitable language to create the appropriate atmosphere.

But then, there are no elves, hobbits, goblins and middle earth. So Tolkien had to use his imagination/creativity to create something plausible.

You would have to do the same with your informal dialogue.

Remember that the 'prime directive' which has influenced the evolution of speech in Esperanto is clarity. You don't use expressions with someone who knows Esperanto, but doesn't share your mother tongue, which would create difficulties. This cultural norm is persuasive for many Esperanto speakers.

Metsis (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 14:25:48

PrimeMinisterK:
Let me ask you, how would you handle the dialogue that I posted earlier if you were translating that? Would you just
worry about preserving the shorthand nature of it, or would you come up with a creative solution?
There are professional translators for translating belliteraturo. I rather leave translating that dialogue to them.

However let me point out one thing using an example. I haven't read Harry Potter myself but my daughter has – translated of course. Since the events take place in their own imaginary world, the translator has opted to translate the place names so that the local readers would get a feeling of that world. For instance "Hogwarts" doesn't ring any bell here, there is no mental image associated with it. On the contrary the translated name "Tylypahka" sets the imagination of the readers in motion.

Even if your dialogue happened to place in the "real world" (i.e. in one sans witches, elves and so on), the changes are that there is no actual usage upon which to draw authenticity as Sudanglo pointed out.

You need to make a decision. Leave the original names as such whereby the work might feel too translated to some. Or esperantigi them in one way or other to create a sense of Esperantujo.

I would opt for a more creative solution that would stand on its own, sed mi ne estas tradukisto.

nornen (הצגת פרופיל) 26 באפריל 2020, 14:48:44

Mia mallerta klopodo:

A: Kion vi faras?
B: Hm, ne multe.
A: Ĉu vi iris al la vendejo hodiaŭ?
B: Ne, neniun inklinon. Eble morgaŭ.
A: Hm, bone. Kion vi faros ĉi-nokte?
B: La normalan. Nur pigrumi. Spekti iom da televido kaj ludi kun la hundo.

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