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Rolling R

de byronarnold, 2008-aŭgusto-16

Mesaĝoj: 34

Lingvo: English

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-17 08:43:53

Abras:And another word of advice: don't try too hard
Actually, if you don't mind me building on that Abras, it's not good to get stressed about pronunciation, because then your speech starts to break down into little chunks which becomes hard to understand anyway.

Ekzemple: my spanish (for those who don't get what I'm attempting to say)
relaxed: mi mad're está bebiendo. (my mother is drinking, with the only problem being an bit of a soft 'r')
stressed: mi (er) madrre estaa bebiendo - er bebienda - er ........... ........ et cetera lango.gif

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-17 10:28:05

byronarnold:.. problem with the rolling r.. any suggestions in making it?
Here is a good Youtube video, on how to prounce the Scottish 'r' which is equivalent to the Esperanto r.

Trying to describe it in a way that might help someone who can't do it is a real challenge, but I'll do my best:

(a) To begin with, just exhale through your mouth normally. That should be easy enough.

(b) Now try and do it just a little bit more abruptly. Still easy, I hope.

(c) Now, doing (b), try momentarily restricting the air flow by touching the hard palate very briefly with the tip or front of the upper surface of the tongue.

Hopefully that plus the Youtube video will help you on your way.

languagegeek (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-25 04:49:48

I’m afraid there isn’t a no-trill gene. Most if not all of the languages of Europe already have or used to have the trilled/flapped r. Phonology is all in the mind, everyone (barring severe physical impediments) can roll their r with enough practice and help.

A bit of advice. Practice the trilled r surrounded by a’s or o’s—where the tongue oscillates more slowly. Saying trilled r’s around i’s is going to force your tongue to trill at a faster rate.

"para" might be easier than "iri".

And if the Italian r is to be the model, many Italians use the single-flapped r instead of a full trill. Flapping an r is certainly easier to say, and if you speak Canadian, American, or Australian English, you can already flap an r : the "tt" in "bottle".

The difficulty is in the spelling, people see the letter "r" and their brain wants to say an English "r". A Canadian who sees the Esperanto word "meti" would instinctively pronounce it "meri" (with a nicely flapped r), but when they see "meriti", they end up with "meRiri" (where the capital R is the English frictionless r).

BTW, the English Wikipedia article on Esperanto phonology states:
The /r/ may be pronounced as either an alveolar flap [ɾ] or an alveolar trill [r], in free variation but with the flap more common.
If this is not the case, that section of the wiki page should be re-written.

Frankly, I would think it is more difficult for English speakers to give up aspirating word-initial p t k, and to stop using diphthongs for the Esperanto vowel sounds. English speakers know the "r" is supposed to be different, but aspirated p t k and the vowels could easily fly under the radar.

Kraughne (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-30 09:22:01

We're talking about the R as in the Spanish word churro, right? If so, it's a difficult sound for an English speaker to make, and I don't have a snowball's chance in hell of pronouncing it before another consonant. lango.gif I will stick to the Italian R.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-30 13:32:24

It's not like the R in churro. Preferably you should pronounce the R like an Italian R.

The only time when you would need an R like in churro is when you actually have two R's next to each other in Esperanto - like in the compound word "superrigardo" (overview).

henma (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-30 23:00:36

erinja:It's not like the R in churro. Preferably you should pronounce the R like an Italian R.
I have heard people pronouncing all Esperanto r's as the strong one and it doesn't sound good. And it's difficult to pronounce in a group with many consonants rideto.gif.

erinja:The only time when you would need an R like in churro is when you actually have two R's next to each other in Esperanto - like in the compound word "superrigardo" (overview).
I would prefer two soft r's... It's not easy, and it was difficult for me not to pronounce them as a strong R (as difficult as to pronounce initial r's soft, because for me, in Spanish, initial r, rr and r after n, s or z is always strong malgajo.gif)

But, in Esperanto every consonant is supposed to be pronounces always the same, and every one has to be pronounced, so double consonants are to be pronounced twice, not as a different sound (ll as two l's, rr as two r's, ss as two s's, etc.).

It's only practice, and practice... and after that, more practice... but it's the same to learn any foreign language, isn't it? At least, in Esperanto we don't have all those difficult exceptions... okulumo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-31 02:29:56

You could argue double letters are infact exceptions brought by word construction, nonetheless I just roll the 'r' in 'superrigardo' as much as I would a single 'r' - I can barely roll 'r's correctly to begin with. I can approximate them (being an English speaker), I can something like a lateral tap crossed with an alveolar (like in Japanese), but rolling is getting difficult. So how do you do an extra long 'r' either approximated or... lateralated? lango.gif

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-31 12:00:02

Double letters are not exceptions, and must in fact be pronounced "double". There are a very few Esperanto roots with double letters in them; most double letters come up as a result of compounding words. But the pronunciation is "double", regardless of whether the double letter is in a root or in a compound word.

For example, "fino" and "finno" are not pronounced the same. You have to hold on to the N longer in "finno". "finnn-no". Versus "fiii-no". It's almost like you pause longer on the letter N. This should be familiar to anyone who speaks Italian, or any number of languages where double letters are pronounced doubly.

jchthys (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-31 12:19:47

erinja:For example, "fino" and "finno" are not pronounced the same. You have to hold on to the N longer in "finno". "finnn-no". Versus "fiii-no". It's almost like you pause longer on the letter N. This should be familiar to anyone who speaks Italian, or any number of languages where double letters are pronounced doubly.
It's as in the sentence Men and women negligent of their studies are more likely to fail.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2009-marto-31 13:05:51

erinja:For example, "fino" and "finno" are not pronounced the same. You have to hold on to the N longer in "finno". "finnn-no". Versus "fiii-no". It's almost like you pause longer on the letter N. This should be familiar to anyone who speaks Italian, or any number of languages where double letters are pronounced doubly.
Which is exactly why I prefer the root suom', which does not have such a pronounciation problem.

Reen al la supro