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Denaskigxuloj?

从 Rohan, 2008年8月19日

讯息： 9

语言: English

Rohan (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日上午10:02:08

Hello.

The verb 'naski' means 'to give birth'. And 'naskigxi' means 'to be born'.

If these meanings are accepted, then one ought to be able to distinguish between 'denaske' and 'denaskigxe' in the following manner:

denaske = since giving birth
denaskigxe = since being born

Then, 'denaska parolanto' ought to mean 'a speaker since giving birth', while 'native speaker' ought to be 'denaskigxa parolanto', 'a speaker since being born'.

What say you?

Miland (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日下午12:47:12

Good argument, but denaska has become widely used, and we could also interpret it as referring to the event of birth (from the mother's point of view).

But if you want to be more precise still, no-one is born speaking Esperanto, so you might say kreskanta parolanto.

Even this is not precise enough, since biological growth and human culture are two different things, so we might want to use deinfaneca parolanto. An alternative might be unualingva parolanto.

Then again, someone might deliberately abandon their first language and use Esperanto till it had replaced their first language which they virtually forgot through disuse. I'll leave that one to you..

eb.eric (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日下午2:17:34

Miland:Good argument, but denaska has become widely used, and we could also interpret it as referring to the event of birth (from the mother's point of view).

But if you want to be more precise still, no-one is born speaking Esperanto, so you might say kreskiĝanta parolanto.

Even this is not precise enough, since biological growth and human culture are two different things, so we might want to use deinfaneca parolanto. An alternative might be unualingva parolanto.

Then again, someone might deliberately abandon their first language and use Esperanto till it had replaced their first language which they virtually forgot through disuse. I'll leave that one to you..
On the other hand, kreski wouldn't need -iĝi as it is already intransitive.

Maybe dumkreska lingvo aŭ eĉ principjuneca lingvo (la lingvo kiu, dum la juneco kaj kreskado, estis uzata principe).

It is a hard thing to define though. I'll give it a shot.

Maybe we're talking about a language that was learned to proficiency, and this proficiency wasn't attained after a significant time after already being proficient in another language. ie. if you have one, it is the first language you became proficient in. If you have two, after you were born, you learned two languages and became proficient in them both at around the same time. "Proficient" needs defining, but we'll assume it means what you expect it should mean.

So how can I condense that into an Esperanto word... I can't.

I keep thinking "de-flowering" haha in the sense that you acquire (a) language(s) for the first time. Now I'm hearing Madonna in my head. Oh man... too much coffee.

Miland (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日下午3:33:17

Yes, the iĝ is redundant with kresk-, well spotted. I've edited my original accordingly.

davidwelsh (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日下午9:29:03

All the languages I know use the expression "mother tongue" or something similar. "Patrina lingvo" has rather a nice ring to it don't you think?

Miland (显示个人资料) 2008年8月19日下午9:43:52

davidwelsh:"Patrina lingvo" has rather a nice ring to it don't you think?
I agree about the niceness, but in fact my mother's first language is not the one I think in. For that reason I prefer the term 'first language'.

Tomhadland (显示个人资料) 2008年8月20日下午1:30:48

Miland:
davidwelsh:"Patrina lingvo" has rather a nice ring to it don't you think?
I agree about the niceness, but, in fact my mother's first language is not the one I think in. For that reason I prefer the term 'first language'.
I'm sure I've heard 'gepatra lingvo' somewhere. Apologies if someone has already said this!

guyjohnston (显示个人资料) 2008年8月22日下午8:17:30

I understand "denaska" to mean "de la nasko", as in "from/since the act of giving birth" with "nask-" coming from the noun form, "nasko" in that word. As the act of giving birth happens at the same time as the act/experience of being born, it doesn't matter which you refer to. "Denaska" could also refer to another act of giving birth, such as the "denaska" person in question giving birth to someone else, but it's pretty understandable from the context, and you'd only really need a more specific (and probably longer) word like "denaskiĝa" if there was a risk of it being misunderstood. You get a similar thing with other words, like "je la fino de la tago" instead of "je la finiĝo de la tago", because it's pretty clear that the act of finishing is happening to the day, rather than the day finishing something else.

Timtim (显示个人资料) 2008年8月30日上午9:13:05

I was at a presentation with akademanio Profesoro Erich-Dieter Krause a couple of years of back, and he and his audience all hit upon this point.

It's accepted as what it is, but logic seems to suggest that X is a speaker since *sia* birth, which would be naskig'o. X is a denaskig'a parolanto.

I happened to mention this to a denaskulo (aren't we all?) and he agreed perfectly that this was better ... then we carried on saying denaska ever since because it's established and understood and has since become more natural anyway. (Besides, if you really wanted to be literal, then you'd have to create a new expression anyway, since even the most capable of us don't speak from the moment of our birth.)

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