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Confusion over grammar

di Mart1986, 07 settembre 2008

Messaggi: 20

Lingua: English

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 07 settembre 2008 18:30:41

The "est- -nta" form does have its uses, of course, when you really do want to compound the tenses.

For example "I was about to go to the store" isn't as easily expressed using only the simple tenses, since it combines both the past and (relative) future into one expression. In this case, if you want to be precise,

"Mi estis ironta al la vendejo"

is more expressive. However, it is less comprehensible - whenever I run across this form when reading, I always have to pause for a moment to untangle it before continuing on. I would suggest using it only in cases where the simple tenses really will not do.

ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 11:14:47

I would say from a quick read over from this forum thingamabob that this esti + VERB + nta construction is very similar in usage to the 'stare + VERB + -ndo' construction in Italian (for those who aren't sure about what I am on about, it's basically the same as '-ing' in English but only used when absolutely necessary)

mnlg (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 12:15:47

ceigered, not exactly; there are forms in Italian that (almost) require such constructions. In Esperanto, the compound verbs are useful when you want to specify the time and the state of the action separately. It's not a matter of being necessary in the grammatical form you are using, but of being more specific when you need more detail in what you have to say.

ailebol (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 20:51:35

Saluton:

Mart1986 brought up a point which is always confusing to me.
When do you use Mi laboradas as opposed to Mi estas laboranta?

Thank you,
Joe

Miland (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 21:10:35

ailebol:When do you use Mi laboradas as opposed to Mi estas laboranta?
The suffix ad is used for repetitive, continuous activity, so Mi laboradas would mean something like 'I am continually working'. It might be a bit of a complaint, in fact. But it's not a common usage. Mi estas laboranta means 'I am working at this moment'.

If you just want to say 'I am working', Mi laboras is the simplest and best.

mnlg (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 21:56:54

Miland:The suffix ad is used for repetitive, continuous activity
Yes and no; in my experience, when used as a noun, -ado shows a definite occurrence of an action, an action that can be placed on an imaginary timeline, as opposed to the plain noun -o, which describes an ideal, absolute or instantaneous action. Compare for instance "studo" (a study, a report, someone's progress in their studying career) with "studado" (actually sitting down, reading books and memorizing notions during a given time); "danco" (a generic/abstract dance; what will be thought at a dancing school) with "dancado" (the actual dancing, an action of dancing that has taken a definite amount of time).

When used as a verb, then it is more similar to what you describe. A good example is "faradi", which means "to strive", "to do all you can".

Miland (Mostra il profilo) 08 settembre 2008 22:33:40

dancado is certainly limited in time, but it is also continuous, involving repeated action. So we need to distinguish continuity from limitedness. Thus PMEG says "la AD-formo montras nur (daŭran) agon" (section 38.2.2). Also detala gramatiko p.177 (27.2)

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 09 settembre 2008 01:41:52

It is used to create gerunds, as andrew says.

If you're not sure when to use it, I always interpret "Xado" as meaning "(the act of) Xing", where "the act of" is left out and just assumed.

Mi ŝatas kuradon = I like running = I like (the act of) running.

Mi malamas ternadon = I hate sneezing = I hate (the act of) sneezing.

La lernado de Esperanto estas facila = Learning Esperanto is easy = (The act of) learning Esperanto is easy.

And so on.

Miland (Mostra il profilo) 09 settembre 2008 11:09:47

Kurado in a school curriculum would be classified as an 'activity', rather than a an 'act', though the individual acts would be grouped together and could be spoken of as a unit, and therefore treated as a (gerund) noun (hence ending -o), as you say.

mnlg (Mostra il profilo) 09 settembre 2008 15:33:10

To me the difference between these two sentences is quite clear:

"oni aranĝis kuron"

A race (a competition, an event) has been arranged.

"oni aranĝis kuradon"

A race (people actually running) has been arranged.

The first example relates to an ideal, instantaneous, or generic action. The second example refers to an act or action that spans, or has spanned, a given time. Not necessarily a long time, but some time.

I see -ad- as a "verbal" correspondant to -aĵ-. "Manĝaĵo" is a concrete object; "manĝado" is a concrete action.

This is however my opinion, of course.

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