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Graphic Novels

от Tidalias, 12 септември 2008

Съобщения: 146

Език: English

jchthys (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 14:53:53

Personally, I don’t know what’s wrong with flipping the manga left-to-right…after all that’s the direction of the language you’re translating into…or is that unmentionable heresy… senkulpa.gif

Personally I think those who want the Japanese culture completely untainted should read it in the Japanese. Esperanto is a bridge: all people should be able to read and understand the work. A bridge doesn’t need to be lopsided.

jchthys (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 14:58:46

patrik:The question is whether to Esperantize Japanese words [particularly the honorifics] or not. My answer is that it would depend on the approach the translator takes: either mere transliteration or full Esperantization.

Transliteration is just rendering the spelling of a word into a different writing system. Esperantization goes beyond that by converting that word into an Esperanto word. Now, if we start putting "-o"'s into the names, that's Esperantization. If not, those names remains Japanese.

Now, full Esperantization would demand translation of those honorifics, because when Japanese words become Esperanto words [by putting those "-o"'s], these are now fully subject to Esperanto's morphological rules. If that's the case, then we can freely affix "-ĉjo/-njo" to those names, for instance. But when it's otherwise, there's no point in putting Esperanto affixes into Japanese words, just because the names are still Japanese words and thus are only subject to the morphological rules of Japanese.
I think a mediating approach is better—it doesn’t need to be either/or.

I disapprove of adding the o to proper names in most cases. It doesn’t need to have an o to be Esperantized, as I pointed out earlier in the Esperanto Bible.

As to whether honorifics should be translated, I’d better leave that to the fans—although they might be more likely to leave them in than others (which might be fine if it’s going to be mostly other manga fans reading it).

patrik (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 15:23:15

jchthys:I disapprove of adding the o to proper names in most cases. It doesn’t need to have an o to be Esperantized, as I pointed out earlier in the Esperanto Bible.
What Zamenhof did was that he transliterated some names, and used "internationalized" forms for some. He never converted them into Esperanto roots. My point was that putting "-o" on word or name would subject that word to Esperanto rules, converting it into an Esperanto root. You cannot put "-ĉj", "-id", "-et" or any other affix on "Noa" because it's not an Esperanto root.

jchthys:As to whether honorifics should be translated, I’d better leave that to the fans—although they might be more likely to leave them in than others (which might be fine if it’s going to be mostly other manga fans reading it).
Manga fans really prefer to see the honorifics intact. Look at onemanga.com, and you'll see. okulumo.gif

ceigered (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 15:51:09

Ah patrik I forgot about mentioning onemanga.com... Pity they're manga is only translated into English, if they did other languages it'd give me a place to which I can send any translations I end up doing (YES I IMPLEMENTED THE "no prepositions at the end of a sentence" RULE!)

And jchthys the reason manga translators don't/shouldn't flip the artwork is because it ruins alignments and makes everything mirrored - not good if the artist has 'drawn' words in the background etc. Basically it's about keeping the integrity of the original art, you don't want to compromise it because, well, that's part of what people are reading for. Because it looks cool lango.gif.

And then you've got anime - if things are flipped around in the anime compared to the manga it'll just confuse everyone, especially stories that make great use of large environments e.g. Misaki city in Shakugan no Shana - one minute Yuji's heading west to go home and then in the translated anime adaption he's heading east - what the?? lango.gif.

The problem is when you get too used to manga reading direction - like me trying to read my brothers star wars comic book backwards and him going 'You idiot, you're reading it the wrong way, stop joking Christian!' (I wasn't joking I was seriously trying to read it back to front lol)

And mnlg I personally also like the word 'ripetizione' in Italiano. Then again Italian sounds cool fullstop, but if I had to choose a word it would be ripetizione.

jchthys (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 16:01:23

patrik:What Zamenhof did was that he transliterated some names, and used "internationalized" forms for some. He never converted them into Esperanto roots. My point was that putting "-o" on word or name would subject that word to Esperanto rules, converting it into an Esperanto root. You cannot put "-ĉj", "-id", "-et" or any other affix on "Noa" because it's not an Esperanto root.
However, you can put the accusative on, and as far as I’m concerned you could also add “-ĉjo”.

mnlg (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 16:12:05

ceigered:And mnlg I personally also like the word 'ripetizione' in Italiano. Then again Italian sounds cool fullstop, but if I had to choose a word it would be ripetizione.
Doesn't give me the thrills, sorry okulumo.gif

A friend of mine from Hungary used to like the word 'ciondolare' [tSondo'lare] (to hang/swing). Linking in with the current topic, I would suggest the word 'scervellarsi' [stServel'larsi] (to rake one's brain), which should be a nightmare for a Japanese speaker...

erinja (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 16:19:42

Maverynthia:I'm sorry erinja that your such a xenophobe to Asian cultures that the thought of seeing one makes you say these things and cringe at the very thought of having them in your mind.
Um, wow. It's funny that someone should say this about me, regarding Asia in particular. I spent a month in China after high school. My walls at home are decorated with Chinese paper cuttings that I did myself, and Chinese calligraphy (which I did not do myself, since I am a poor Chinese calligrapher, although I took a course in Chinese calligraphy in university). I love the various Asian foods, arts, traditional clothing, customs, historic places, etc. My kitchen is full of "weird" ingredients that most people don't know what to do with, and I am known to buy something I've never heard of at my local Korean market, to figure out what to do with it later. I am one of the approximately 5.3 people in the universe who has made lotus seed paste, from scratch (btw it's really not hard).

I do not happen to like manga. I also do not happen to like the vast majority of Western comic books, so this has nothing to do with manga in and of itself. All I was trying to say is that you want a translation to be accessible to its readers. A careful translator will find an appropriate middle path, somewhere between leaving half of the words in the original Japanese (because they are "too hard" to translate) and watering down the culture into bland neutrality. This is my opinion for a translation to or from ANY language. Reading a book from a foreign culture is a wonderful way to learn about the culture, but you need to make it accessible enough that it's not like reading a textbook, with a footnote or an explanation or a foreign word on every other line. I don't know what is traditional or usual in manga, which is why I suggested looking at existing translations written by Japanese people, to see what they did.

But Esperanto has a long tradition of translations from all languages of the world. I think we can benefit from looking at what Esperanto translators of the past have done when translating from other languages into Esperanto, and also what manga translators of the present do when translating from Japanese to various western languages. Do Italian translations of manga maintain full use of Japanese honorifics, for example? I have no idea. Honestly, I do not care at all, one way or another. These are just some things to think about, for all you manga translators out there.

ceigered (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 16:30:45

mnlg: I would suggest the word 'scervellarsi' [stServel'larsi] (to rake one's brain), which should be a nightmare for a Japanese speaker...
I'm guessing it'd sound like sheruberarushi japanesified ~ sceruberarusci.... Still understandable? ridulo.gif

The ultimate Aussificiation of that would probably be 'skervelarzee' (s'kə:və'la:zi: in IPA) ~ schevelasi ridulo.gif

Isn't sc always like ŝ though? Or are my Italian sources really German/Medieval Anglo-Saxon spies?

@ erinja - I do that exact thing in China town at the Chinese supermarket - I go in, buy something (without knowing what it is or does) and then go with my mates to a chinese restaurant and try and figure out whether it has the potential to blow my head off or not (usually by such brave and macho means of trial and error) lango.gif.

And while further moving away from the topic, do you 5.3 people have a club for lotus seed pasting? Like the 5.3 people who speak lojban? lango.gif

And this isn't right at all. Mnlg, erinja and jchthys are awake at the same time as me... did you guys miss me that much that you decided to get up early? Or is my clock really not broken and it actually is 1.52am? rido.gif

erinja (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 16:37:14

ceigered:And while further moving away from the topic, do you 5.3 people have a club for lotus seed pasting? Like the 5.3 people who speak lojban? lango.gif
No club! Wish there was a club, most recipes online consisted of something like "Make dough for buns. Open can of lotus seed paste. Put paste into buns. Steam the buns". Took me a little bit of looking to find a real recipe. Some person suggested putting in pandan leaf extract, which I did for half my batch (also because I had a frozen pandan leaf in my freezer since forever, and I wanted to use it up for something, anything!), though I didn't notice a big taste difference.
And this isn't right at all. Mnlg, erinja and jchthys are awake at the same time as me... did you guys miss me that much that you decided to get up early? Or is my clock really not broken and it actually is 1.52am? rido.gif
I'm on my lunch break, mnlg should be going home from work shortly, you are totally up past your bedtime lango.gif

LyzTyphone (Покажи профила) 02 септември 2009, 17:19:32

jchthys:Personally, I don’t know what’s wrong with flipping the manga left-to-right…after all that’s the direction of the language you’re translating into…or is that unmentionable heresy…
Ne, amiko, tio estis nur sarkasmo.

@R2D2!
Wow, that seems to legalize my use of "neniel ne" = affirmative use! Thanks!
----------------OK Let's get into the business------------------

@mnlg
What I believe, however, is that Esperanto has a role slightly different to natural language. It's an auxlang, so people come to Esperanto first for an easy way of understanding a foreign culture. For just that understandability should rule over aesthetics reason. Great translator JEN Fu, once stated that good translation requires three qualities: 信, trueness; 雅, elegance; and 達, understandability. And if you ask me to rank them, I will put it as T>U>E.

But of course Translation "is both a science and an art", and more like the latter when it comes to literature (including graphic novel). And we know that rules in an art only serves as guideline. When you think you have perfect reason, break them. Would you mind to share your reason for doing so in this case? ridulo.gif

In addition, I have something say about your example. It seems to me that actually those words have been "Italianized", that is, they are now new Italian words from Russian. Am I right? I wonder whether they are in Cyril or in Latin, and whether they obey grammatic rules of Italian?

@patrik
Interesting! Because I have never thought of that before, I looked it up in the PMEG: the result. Now on your argument, the mojority of us put the creator's name intact as Zamenhof, right? But I have seen the use of Zamenhofaĵo (50 google results) and Zamĉjo (631 google result). So it seems they are Esperanta words after all. Grammatically speaking, they will be a Frazparto that have O-vorteco(n), but not an O-vorto themselves.
Besides, I can't remember seeing any non-proper-name, unEsperantized word before, so it looks like leaving "de arimasu" in will be unprecedented. Have you?

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I will always appreciate those who help me with my translation~ As I think for now the direction of translation of this sentence has not been questioned?

I think erinja's advice is very practical. If only we have some translation of Japanese literature to consult... Seriously now, I just noticed nobody here in our discussion is Japanese! Where in the world did all the Japanaj Esperantistoj go?

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It is also way too late here in Shanghai, so I will finish my message later. See you guys tomorrow~

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