Messages : 146
Langue: English
ceigered (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 13:07:16
Strictly speaking though Osxo-Jabe, the 'anglicised' method of romaji transliteration is preferred by the Japanese and it is considered one of their scripts (even if it is used more rarely than pure katakana).
Of course I've seen different names in different manga translated differently with internationally distributed manga like One Piece (Luffy's name has so many forms that it's not funny).
And I forgot about naming puns, the same thing is in School Rumble (Harima Kenji and Harry Mackenzie (Hari Makenji))
. I guess if someone wishes to fully EO-icise the names an editors note can always be used.
I'm certainly going to stick more to the Japanese style though. I just can't help but feel that EO-icising a manga too much in translation would kill the culture that I love about them (we otaku need our culture).
Of course I've seen different names in different manga translated differently with internationally distributed manga like One Piece (Luffy's name has so many forms that it's not funny).
And I forgot about naming puns, the same thing is in School Rumble (Harima Kenji and Harry Mackenzie (Hari Makenji))
. I guess if someone wishes to fully EO-icise the names an editors note can always be used.I'm certainly going to stick more to the Japanese style though. I just can't help but feel that EO-icising a manga too much in translation would kill the culture that I love about them (we otaku need our culture
). 
patrik (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 14:38:48
I agree with Oŝo-Jabe regarding Esperantizing the spelling of names [and placenames, as well, like "Jokohamo/a"], but I think many won't like that. For example, how to render "w"? I think using "W" won't be too much. Again, it's a matter of aesthetics, it should please the "senses" of the readers. 
Esperanto has some Japanese borrowings, and it's interesting to note that Esperantizing them changed them a bit:
[LISTO]
geisha => gejŝo
chanoyu = ĉanojo
hibakusha => hibakuŝo
hashi => haŝioj
Tokyo => Tokio [why not "Tokjo"?][/list]Putting "-o"'s on Japanese names would be too much.
The matter on the honorifics and "-ĉjo/-njo" is interesting in itself. First, you can put honorifics on family names, but you can't do the same with "-ĉjo/-njo", as these can only affixed to individual names and to nouns that refer to persons . Therefore, "-ĉjo/-njo" theoretically can be compounded to the family name, mimicking honorifics. [I could be wrong, though.]
Haruhi-chan => Haruhi-njo*/Harunjo, but
Kurosaki-kun => Kurosaki-ĉjo*
Second, since "-ĉjo/-njo" are suffixes, one can derive words acting as "honorifics" from these two:
Sempai: dojeno => dojĉjo/dojnjo
Oyabun: estro => esĉjo/esnjo
Dono: majstro => majĉjo/majnjo
It would be interesting to play with these suffixes.
(P.S. Which is a better translation for "dude": "uĉjo" or "ĉjulo"? I prefer "ĉjulo" myself. [Ĉjul'~!])
Esperanto has some Japanese borrowings, and it's interesting to note that Esperantizing them changed them a bit:
[LISTO]
geisha => gejŝo
chanoyu = ĉanojo
hibakusha => hibakuŝo
hashi => haŝioj
Tokyo => Tokio [why not "Tokjo"?][/list]Putting "-o"'s on Japanese names would be too much.
The matter on the honorifics and "-ĉjo/-njo" is interesting in itself. First, you can put honorifics on family names, but you can't do the same with "-ĉjo/-njo", as these can only affixed to individual names and to nouns that refer to persons . Therefore, "-ĉjo/-njo" theoretically can be compounded to the family name, mimicking honorifics. [I could be wrong, though.
]Haruhi-chan => Haruhi-njo*/Harunjo, but
Kurosaki-kun => Kurosaki-ĉjo*
Second, since "-ĉjo/-njo" are suffixes, one can derive words acting as "honorifics" from these two:
Sempai: dojeno => dojĉjo/dojnjo
Oyabun: estro => esĉjo/esnjo
Dono: majstro => majĉjo/majnjo
It would be interesting to play with these suffixes.
(P.S. Which is a better translation for "dude": "uĉjo" or "ĉjulo"? I prefer "ĉjulo" myself. [Ĉjul'~!
]) 
jchthys (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 18:38:57
I don’t like manga, but I thought I’d point out something about translation, and that’s that it’s more an art than a science.
It would be nice to have a system; however, consistency is sometimes overrated. It’s not wrong to Esperantize, for example, certain honorifics and not others, or certain names and not others. And again, as Erinja said, you’ve got to see what’s been done before.
Take the Esperanto Bible. Zamenhof didn’t translate the names according to a strict system (there was a system, but it was loosely applied). Most names were simply transliterated from Hebrew, but then there were some that were instead based on “international” forms—the forms common among European languages. For example, Noah is not Noaĥ according to the Hebrew, but rather Noa.
So since gejŝo is an actual Esperanto word, you’d spell it Esperantized; and possibly the main characters’ names should be spelled according to the Esperanto system, while side characters use romaji.
It would be nice to have a system; however, consistency is sometimes overrated. It’s not wrong to Esperantize, for example, certain honorifics and not others, or certain names and not others. And again, as Erinja said, you’ve got to see what’s been done before.
Take the Esperanto Bible. Zamenhof didn’t translate the names according to a strict system (there was a system, but it was loosely applied). Most names were simply transliterated from Hebrew, but then there were some that were instead based on “international” forms—the forms common among European languages. For example, Noah is not Noaĥ according to the Hebrew, but rather Noa.
So since gejŝo is an actual Esperanto word, you’d spell it Esperantized; and possibly the main characters’ names should be spelled according to the Esperanto system, while side characters use romaji.
Pharoah (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 18:53:36
I don't understand what the problem would be with transliterating all the names into esperanto. After all, isn't our language supposed to stand on its own? Why should people have to learn the Japanese romanization system, any more than they should have to learn hirigana? After all, according to Wikipedia, there are 3 different ways of romanizing Japanese that are in use today. Esperanto already has an alphabet for these sounds, and it's able to do a decent job.
You might prefer the way romaji looks, but unless you're actually a speaker of Japanese, it doesn't seem like you've got much reason to complain about it. After all, as Oŝo-Jabe points out, these names are not written using our alphabet in Japanese. Just because everyone here happens to be an English speaker, doesn't mean this is the only potential audience for these translations. I'm sure I don't see anyone suggesting here that English subtitles for Japanese anime should represent the names using hirigana.
As to the whole otaku-culture argument, isn't it possible that people will want to read these for entertainment, rather than to join some sort of movement? I don't think learning a new spelling system should be an "initiation right" that any Esperantist has to go through to read a book translated into Esperanto, provided that they already know our standard alphabet.
You might prefer the way romaji looks, but unless you're actually a speaker of Japanese, it doesn't seem like you've got much reason to complain about it. After all, as Oŝo-Jabe points out, these names are not written using our alphabet in Japanese. Just because everyone here happens to be an English speaker, doesn't mean this is the only potential audience for these translations. I'm sure I don't see anyone suggesting here that English subtitles for Japanese anime should represent the names using hirigana.
As to the whole otaku-culture argument, isn't it possible that people will want to read these for entertainment, rather than to join some sort of movement? I don't think learning a new spelling system should be an "initiation right" that any Esperantist has to go through to read a book translated into Esperanto, provided that they already know our standard alphabet.
jchthys (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 19:29:14
I noticed that all the languages that use the latin alphabet on Wikipedia use the spelling “Shakugan no Shana”.
Zafur (Voir le profil) 28 août 2009 23:50:31
I doubt the "otaku culture" is really a movement of any kind. It's really just a group of people obsessed over anime/manga, in the bluntest terms.
But honestly, I don't mind transliterating, for example "Ŝakugan no Ŝana" as it is pronounced the same, and is best for people not aware of romaji. For the title, you could either do a system of the original Japanese followed by the translation, or just the title translated into Esperanto. I just personally wouldn't add the -o since Esperanto doesn't force us to for proper names.
Also I dislike the fact that to use "-ĉjo/-njo", you have to take off a syllable or two of the name, but I guess as long as the full name is mentioned somewhere, it doesn't really matter. I guess I'm a bit paranoid that it'll somehow deny me the knowledge of the full name lol. More of a personal preference than anything.
But honestly, I don't mind transliterating, for example "Ŝakugan no Ŝana" as it is pronounced the same, and is best for people not aware of romaji. For the title, you could either do a system of the original Japanese followed by the translation, or just the title translated into Esperanto. I just personally wouldn't add the -o since Esperanto doesn't force us to for proper names.
Also I dislike the fact that to use "-ĉjo/-njo", you have to take off a syllable or two of the name, but I guess as long as the full name is mentioned somewhere, it doesn't really matter. I guess I'm a bit paranoid that it'll somehow deny me the knowledge of the full name lol. More of a personal preference than anything.
erinja (Voir le profil) 29 août 2009 01:09:54
Translations always give less information than the original language. If you are so serious about manga that you can't bear the loss of your Japanese suffixes, then you should just learn Japanese and read it in the original, because the very fact of putting it into another language gives you a loss of information, even if you do try to preserve suffixes or grammatical forms. Even translating between related languages, say, Spanish and Italian, nuance is lost. Each language makes distinctions that the other doesn't make, and which are impossible to translate word for word.
Therefore, I am not in support of using the Japanese suffixes in Esperanto. It sounds like they are somewhat nuanced and complex, and I get the impression that leaving them in would make the text harder than necessary to understand. If it were just one or two, that would be one thing, but it sounds like it's a long list.
A skilled translator is able to capture the meaning of a text, even when the same grammatical forms aren't available. Inevitably something will be lost in the translation, but if you translate with skill, the losses will be very minor.
Therefore, I am not in support of using the Japanese suffixes in Esperanto. It sounds like they are somewhat nuanced and complex, and I get the impression that leaving them in would make the text harder than necessary to understand. If it were just one or two, that would be one thing, but it sounds like it's a long list.
A skilled translator is able to capture the meaning of a text, even when the same grammatical forms aren't available. Inevitably something will be lost in the translation, but if you translate with skill, the losses will be very minor.
Oŝo-Jabe (Voir le profil) 29 août 2009 01:14:13
Zafur:I doubt the "otaku culture" is really a movement of any kind. It's really just a group of people obsessed over anime/manga, in the bluntest terms.I like the system used in the Esperanto Bible. Names not normally ending in "o" are treated as if they have an ommited "o" and ommited apostrophe. So as direct objects they have "-on" added to the end.
But honestly, I don't mind transliterating, for example "Ŝakugan no Ŝana" as it is pronounced the same, and is best for people not aware of romaji. For the title, you could either do a system of the original Japanese followed by the translation, or just the title translated into Esperanto. I just personally wouldn't add the -o since Esperanto doesn't force us to for proper names.
Zafur:Also I dislike the fact that to use "-ĉjo/-njo", you have to take off a syllable or two of the name, but I guess as long as the full name is mentioned somewhere, it doesn't really matter. I guess I'm a bit paranoid that it'll somehow deny me the knowledge of the full name lol. More of a personal preference than anything.Actually the parallels between -ĉjo/-njo and -chan are interesting. Both are used for "nicknames", and both can shorten the name they're affixed to. If the name isn't shortened in the original text, and it ends in a vowel other than "o", you could just end it with -ĉjo or -njo with no problem.
The scheme could be something like:
Nominative: Haruhi
"Nickname": Haruhinjo
Accusative: Haruhion.
ceigered:@Oŝo-Jabe:Yes. It means women's language. It consists of words and grammatical forms that are culturally expected to be used by females, but are still technically correct if used by males (people might look at you funny...) It is generally more polite, while the culturally masculine words are considered more gruff.
Whats Joseigo? Related to josei at all?
Zafur (Voir le profil) 29 août 2009 01:54:37
That's a good system. I wouldn't mind that, I just have a problem with mutilating people's names. Except for extreme cases such as for making running jokes and puns make sense.
I thought shortening the name was needed? Probably mistook a guideline as a rule.
And I'm guessing Erinja's reply wasn't to me? I mentioned not liking unnecessary loss in the last letters of a name, not the honorifics.
As far as I'm aware of, the honorifics aren't that long of a list, the common ones anyways. I'm actually not aware of any others not already listed. The ones that were already mentioned in this thread are pretty much the only ones you'll encounter most of the time. Some of them are easily translatable like -hime which simply means Princess and doesn't need an explanation.
I'd either have them untranslated and put a note explaining what they mean and the Esperanto equivalents, or translate them and say what they're actually replacing, and put an explanation if needed.
So it's between "remaining more Japanese" and having a "full translation".
I personally don't mind either because they both give all the knowledge needed.
I thought shortening the name was needed? Probably mistook a guideline as a rule.
And I'm guessing Erinja's reply wasn't to me? I mentioned not liking unnecessary loss in the last letters of a name, not the honorifics.
As far as I'm aware of, the honorifics aren't that long of a list, the common ones anyways. I'm actually not aware of any others not already listed. The ones that were already mentioned in this thread are pretty much the only ones you'll encounter most of the time. Some of them are easily translatable like -hime which simply means Princess and doesn't need an explanation.
I'd either have them untranslated and put a note explaining what they mean and the Esperanto equivalents, or translate them and say what they're actually replacing, and put an explanation if needed.
So it's between "remaining more Japanese" and having a "full translation".
I personally don't mind either because they both give all the knowledge needed.
Oŝo-Jabe (Voir le profil) 29 août 2009 03:35:47
Zafur:I thought shortening the name was needed? Probably mistook a guideline as a rule.Well... It is a rule. I justify Haruhinjo, as a shortening of Haruhio, from which the accusative Haruhion is derived (even if the actual text will only use Haruhi, Haruhion, and Haruhinjo.) Names that end in "o" originally, are the only place where my justification might not work. If someone was named Masako, and you wanted their "nickname" to be Masakonjo, then the accusative would have to be Masakoon.
The PMEG does make mention of affixing -in to female names, and -ul to male names and then attaching -ĉjo or -njo, as a way to make nicknames sound better. So, we could conceivably use Masako, Masakinjo (from Masakino), Masakon.