ceigered:On related news I've translated ONE WHOLE PAGE ( ) of 090-Eko to Issho using a decent English fan translation as a base. Problem was that the translation is too good in some ways that it can be hard to translate to EO (say we start with: 'they (mobiles) take over your life' - 'ili prenas vian vivon' - 'ili mortigas vin' , I just used 'ili prenas vian tempon', no use making it sound like life-taking mobiles are on the loose).

I would personally go with, "ili okupas vian (tutan) vivon," or something similar. However yours gets the meaning across, I think.

This article from Vikipedio is a very good one in discussing transliteration from Japanese to E-o:

Transskribo de la japana lingvo en Esperanton: http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transskribo_de_la_j...

And this one offers an alternative [using "-" to mark glottal stops in double consonants looks good to me]:

El la japana al Esperanto, by John Derks:
http://www.bonalingvo.it/index.php?title=El_la_j...

What do you think?

@patrik
It's so good to see other Bonlingvisto here! Saluton al kunboniganto!

Let me examine the other alternatives. In the following I will call the three systems by their sources, B(arkituo), Wiki (I am more interested in the convenient system) and D(erks), and for background info, K(unrei) and H(epburn).

After close examination and comparison, it can be concluded that the three systems differ mainly in three ways:
1. Tackling of 促音 or double consonants.
Basically there are two solutions. And, to me, either way will do.
2. Distinguish between じ and ぢ, ず and づ in Wiki and D.
I actually wasn't aware the pronunciations between each pair are different! Very well pointed out!
3. Tackling of Long vocals
This is the part to debate on.
We can see in Wiki-system and D-system, variations of diacritics are introduced to indicate longer vocal. But hold on a second, are we still working an Esperanto transliteration system? If so why are we introducing into Esperanto something never existed (and will not exist) in this language? I don't really see why "oo" or "ee" is not acceptable. If one listens to a J-Pop song, he can hear that "おう" does take up time approximately twice as long as an "お"! So why exactly can't we make that two syllables?
But here I offer a compromise: still exclude signs not Esperanta, but try to make each long vocal still one syllable, just a longer one:
My proposal:
ああ: Ah (In fact very rare except exclamation)
いい: Ij
うう: Uŭ
えい: Ej
おう: Oŭ

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Back to the case, I am now considering something like putting "estas" somewhere different to strengthen it a litter. Do we have a quote directly from Wilhelmina to try this solution on?

LyzTyphone:Do we have a quote directly from Wilhelmina to try this solution on?

"Such actions are very unbecoming of a Flame Haze de arimasu"

... or something like that.

ceigered:

LyzTyphone:Do we have a quote directly from Wilhelmina to try this solution on?

"Such actions are very unbecoming of a Flame Haze de arimasu"

... or something like that.

The comparison of transliteration systems are interesting. The main problem is that pronunciation varies for some consonants (e.g. じ／ぢ can some different or sound the same depending on the position in a word or the region etc). The nihon-shiki is the most systematic IMHO, while some forms of hepburn do a better job of matching the irregular sounds (e.g. instead of 'du' it's dzu/zu). But another reason I prefer to use only hepburn - that way I don't get confused between the different ones lol.

LyzTyphone, what's the problem with using the long vowel mark (e.g. āōīūē) or aa/ei/ii/ou/oo? After all that perfectly matches the japanese symbols (ああ／えい／おう／うう) letter for letter or sound for sound (if you use ā etc).

E.g. kawaii = kaŭaii; "今日みなさんは寿司を食べました。" kyou mina-san ŭa suŝi o tabemaŝita / (or if you can't use the hats) kyou mina-san wa sushi o tabemashita

Oŝo-Jabe:I would personally go with, "ili okupas vian (tutan) vivon," or something similar. However yours gets the meaning across, I think.

Cheers, my paperback dictionary didn't have that under take so I was a bit worried

ceigered:LyzTyphone, what's the problem with using the long vowel mark (e.g. āōīūē) or aa/ei/ii/ou/oo? After all that perfectly matches the japanese symbols (ああ／えい／おう／うう) letter for letter or sound for sound (if you use ā etc).

E.g. kawaii = kaŭaii;

I have no problem at all about aa/ii/uu/ei/ou. The B-system I mentioned actually used them.

It's those "vowel marks" that annoy me. Marks as in "ā" or "â" have never been part of Esperanto. And in fact, the "aa/ii/uu/ee/oo" or "aa/ii/uu/ei/ou" conveys the sound of Japanese long vocals just as well. So instead, I prefer to have a system purely Esperanta.
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ceigered:"Such actions are very unbecoming of a Flame Haze de arimasu"

Will be even better if we start from original Japanese sentence, but this works too~
unbecoming: ne konvena
Flame Haze: Flamnebulo
very: judging from Zam's use, "tre" is more formal and thus suits better.

So here the translation:
"Estas tre ne konvenaj tiaj agoj por Flamnebulo."
or "Tiaj agoj por Flamnebulo tre ne konvenaj estas."
Please tell me how you think about these renditions; which sounds authoritative and cold-hearted enough? (If that is how she should sound.) Or is there any grammar error?
I thank you for every kind of comment!

LyzTyphone:It's those "vowel marks" that annoy me. Marks as in "ā" or "â" have never been part of Esperanto. And in fact, the "aa/ii/uu/ee/oo" or "aa/ii/uu/ei/ou" conveys the sound of Japanese long vocals just as well. So instead, I prefer to have a system purely Esperanta.

I completely agree with this.

Esperanto is NOT Japanese, and not every Japanese sound will be able to be rendered perfectly in Esperanto - and that's ok!

We also cannot render every English, or French, or Spanish sound perfectly in Esperanto, and that is also ok. The point of transliteration is to give an idea of the sound, not to give a native-sounding pronunciation of a word foreign to Esperanto. Also remember that in Esperanto, Washington is not "Ŭaŝinton" but "Vaŝingtono". Cambridge is not "Kejmbriĝ" but "Kembriĝo". Esperantizing a foreign word does not necessarily mean rendering the sounds as closely as possible; it also means simplifying the sounds of the word (at least to some degree) to meet Esperanto norms of pronunciation.

My position is generally that if a language uses a non-Latin alphabet, then Esperanto should render the names of that language in the Esperanto alphabet, even if that language has an official romanization system. If a language uses a Latin alphabet, then I don't have a problem with leaving those names as-is in Esperanto, though simplifying sounds and adding -o as appropriate is also ok by me.

So here the translation:
"Tiaj agoj por Flamnebulo tre ne konvena estas."
Please tell me how you think about this rendition; does it sound authoritative and cold-hearted enough? (If that is how she should sound.) Or is there any grammar error?
I thank you for every kind of comment!

Is there a reason why you put "estas" on the end, is that because of the original Japanese word order?

I might say Tiaj agoj estas tute neakcepteblaj por Flamnebulo

I don't know what a Flame Haze is - is that an organization, or a member of an organization, or both? If it is both, then I would call the organization "Flamnebulo" and a person who is a member of it a "Flamnebulano"

"Unbecoming" is usually translated as "Ne konvena" or "nekonvena" in dictionaries, but in some circumstances, I think that "ne taŭga" or "netaŭga" is more appropriate. (taŭga = appropriate, fitting, suitable). In this case, though, I chose to translate it as "unaccaptable", because it gives a much more official tone. Parents call their children's actions unacceptable, or bosses to their subordinates. Unacceptable is not a word that people on the same level would normally use with one another.

As I said before - a good translation goes beyond word-for-word accuracy; the emotions and impressions generated by the sentence are also important, and getting the "atmosphere" right sometimes means choosing a different word.

@erinja
Thank you very much for your advice!
Indeed, it's that "creatively imitating the original tone" part tat makes translation such a hard task. I myself will need much more practice to make it.

FYI, Flame Haze is a special kind of person (like someone with some superpower) so Flamnebulo seems fit in this sentence. Also note that the ending of "Flamnebulo" happens to be "-ulo", by pure chance. How funny

And I think you did capture well the "authoritative mother" tone in Wilhelmina's speech. Very good job!
The reason I was experimenting with putting "estas" on strange place is that, the original Japanese sentence has a very formal "de arimasu" as its ending.
"de arimasu" in Japanese is traditionally very formal, often used by soldier or police officer, and is very authoritative and instructive, so I was trying to find a way to show that nuance in Esperanto translation by emphasizing the verb... Does that work?

LyzTyphone:The reason I was experimenting with putting "estas" on strange place is that, the original Japanese sentence has a very formal "de arimasu" as its ending.
"de arimasu" in Japanese is traditionally very formal, often used by soldier or police officer, and is very authoritative and instructive, so I was trying to find a way to show that nuance in Esperanto translation by emphasizing the verb... Does that work?

Ah, THAT's what "de arimasu" means. I had no clue what it meant, when ceigered used it.

Esperanto does not have a tradition of showing increased formality or authoritativeness by using verb placement, so I would not move "estas" to get that sort of meaning. If anything, we frequently move verbs to sound poetic, so in my opinion, moving the verb to the end would be counterproductive.

Think about English, though. What sorts of words would you add in English to convey that this expression is meant to be formal and instructive? If we're talking to a soldier or cadet, you might refer to the person by rank. ("That's not an action befitting a soldier, lieutenant!"; "Step back in line, cadet!")

What might a mother say to her son in English when she was unhappy with him? Some parents might call their child "young man" or "young lady" ("You better shape up your act, young man"), or some might use their child's full name ("Joseph Christopher Jacobson, get down from that tree right now!")

Another idea for getting the right meaning is to include the nuance you want in the RESPONSE to a statement, rather than in the original statement. There's a big difference between:

A: "Stand up"
B: "Okay."

and:
A: "Stand up"
B: "Sir, yes sir!"

I'm not saying that any of these are necessarily the right way to go in this translation, or that they necessarily translate to Esperanto. But different languages have different ways of expressing this sort of tone, and if you think creatively, you can come up with one that's suitable for the occasion. And remember - it's a translation. It will never, ever perfectly reflect every nuance of meaning in the original. And that's ok! The reader will probably enjoy it anyway, and won't know the difference, or miss the fact that a tiny nuance is missing. The trick is to make sure that every IMPORTANT nuance is there in some form, so that it still makes sense.