So I've been reading the object lessons, and the "language questions" learning section, but I see to be stuck on this simple example using proper names.

Jefferi amas Perrin = Jeffery loves Perrin OR Perrin loves Jeffery?

Changing the name seems pretty silly to me, mainly because that isn't their name. Jeffery is not Jefferi-o and Perrin is not Perrino. Perrino is Perrino.

However, I personally feel that communication can get really confusing with more than one way to handle the issue, as described here:
http://en.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=2...

What happens when you're speaking with someone who uses a different method? Are you expected to learn multiple methods to handle this, or is one of these methods official? Is there a group of people who plan on making on method official? I enjoy the freedom of expression, since it is easier for people of other languages to learn Esperanto in their own subject/verb/object syntax, but even then there is still a barrier between English Esperantists and Esperantists who prefer to use the object/verb/subject syntax.

From my studies on language I can tell you it's 10 times easier for me to learn a new syntax than it is to learn multiple ways to deal with a clear problem. I'm not sure why something like this has gotten away with existing for so long, but there must be a reason I'm not seeing.

Ok, so some people prefer to fall to the "Default Subject/Verb/Object Order", which seems goofy to me considering that would defeat the purpose of having the ending, as people from other language backgrounds would still have to learn a new syntax, which would suggest that perhaps there's a new way to handle this issue.

As long as I'm making a new subject, is it perfectly OK to use the "x" method all the time? Some people say yes, some say no, just like with the accusative ending, but typing an extra character can be annoying, but NOTHING compared to looking up alt codes! (If I was to write a blog, on a standard keyboard, how would I handle that without writing a PHP regular expression script to reformat the characters for display)?

Also, is there a "male" root/suffix? I mean, why isn't "mother" "Matro" instead of "Patrino", OR why isn't father "PatrXXno"? Not that I am upset with the sexist aspect, I'm just thinking that it's aesthetically and structurally annoying to lack a male suffix.

Also, to maintain readable communication between people of other languages, is there a "SET" way to organize Adjectives? IE: Adjective/Noun or is Noun/Adjective perfectly acceptable officially? If so, you will inevitable need to learn a new syntax anyway, so why not just re-write Esperanto to to mimic something more structured. Well, I'm assuming that people probably don't want to re-learn stuff...

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just excited about learning Esperanto, but I'm stuck after about a week.

Dankon,

Aaron (err.... Aarono?)

To your question about the x-method, yes, it's perfectly acceptable to always use it, but using the actual characters is always preferable. If you don't like using character codes:

For Windows users:
http://www.esperanto.mv.ru/Ek/index.html

Ek! is a background program which can easily be toggled on and off. If you're looking at the website and scratching your head, all you need is the .exe file linked to in the top right part of the screen. Though the directions are all in Esperanto, they should be easy enough to figure out. You can set it differently, but by default it'll automatically convert the x-system to normal Esperanto characters no matter where you're typing.

For Mac users:
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/...

This is an Esperanto keyboard layout; after you install it, go to system preferences > international > input menu, find the standard Esperanto layout, click the check box next to it, then click "show input menu in menu bar" below. If you want to, you can also assign some shortcuts you'll remember to switch between keyboards. When you have your keyboard set to Esperanto, the following changes occur:
q > ĉ
y > ĝ
w > ĵ
x > ŝ
option + u > ŭ (u automatically becomes ŭ when typed after a or e)
option + h > ĥ

If you want to type q, y, w, or x while using the Esperanto keyboard, hold the option key and press the appropriate letter.

@Hiyayaywhopee, nice username Thanks for the reply, I'll be sure to check it out. At work and at home I generally only use linux, although I do have a windows box to test with.

I know there has got to be an application to do this in Linux, something like calias.... any Linux users on here?

Thanks again,

Aaron (err... Aarono?)

The accusative with names is an issue. However, the trouble seems more theoretical than real (i.e., people have been successfully getting by with it for over a century). The SVO default might seem a little kludgy, since Esperanto isn't supposed to work that way, but really, in practice, it's not overly troublesome.

As mentioned, the x system is perfectly acceptable. However, modern computers do allow you to never have to use it. My own blog, which is in Esperanto, does not use the x system - it uses the normal Esperanto characters, which I type on a regular keyboard. I personally use a custom keymap that I can easily switch to and back from just by hitting Ctrl-Shift. The program Ek! is also quite popular (although I've never used it).

The male prefix is "vir-", but is not customarily used for those roots which appear to default to the male gender (such as "patro", "frato", and so on). Some people assume that ALL roots are male by default, but whether that is actually true or not is debatable (the Fundamento does not state it as a rule, and the fact that the "-in" suffix is generally used to denote a female whereas no affix is used to indicate a male is not conclusive proof of anything except unofficial convention; the fact that there even IS a male prefix can be taken as an indication that roots are not male by default, even if they often are used as if they are).

webgovernor:I know there has got to be an application to do this in Linux, something like calias.... any Linux users on here?

KDE and GNOME natively support the Esperanto keymap. If you're using Ubuntu or Kubuntu, it's baked right in. I'm not sure about other distros, but the keymaps are available through apt. In your system settings, check your keyboard mappings - you should be able to add a secondary international mapping that you can easily switch between (and the eo mapping should already be in the list of available maps). When I first started learning Esperanto I was using Ubuntu, and had no difficulty setting it up. My custom keymap that I use for Windows is based on the Linux keymap.

@RiotNrrd, Thanks for the reply.

I do have an Ubuntu box running, but primary I post to my blogs via a remote SSH server an VIM, but I think I'll just use nautalis's built in SSH folder with Gedit from now on.

Bah, I'll figure something out.

I'm thinking that "je", as a direction, seems to be an excellent idea when dealing with proper names. The reasons that I feel this way are as follows:

1. This way an "object" is still specified, if an object is specified by the word-order than that defeats the purpose of having the ending in the first place.

2. Changing a proper name would be fine is a standard was set, such as using "-on", but this is not "official" therefor using that method would create more confusion.

3. The "na" method is "against the fundomento", which is probably the LAST thing an international language needs, "unofficial slang". Hell, it's one of the reasons national languages sometimes cause issues (I can't understand half of the southern us population, for example).

Any thoughts or feelings on the "je" method? Is there an official voting system? If not, there should be IMO.

Thanks again,

Aaron

Re: Linux, you might want to take a look at SCIM/SKIM and the m17n-contrib package, which features a plugin that mimics the behavior of Ek! on Windows (rather successfully in my experience).

About names, if you are really worried that you won't be understood, you can always clarify yourself by expanding and rephrasing a little:

Estas Jefferi tiu, kiu amas Perrin
Estas Perrin tiu, kiu estas amata de Jefferi

Not as quick as X amas Y, but clear enough to avoid ambiguities.

I think using “al” can work too:

Estas Jefferi tiu, kiu amas al Perrin.

I’m using Linux and I type in Esperanto with the compose key. So I type ^+c to get ĉ (I have a dead circumflex key on my French keyboard). Ŭ is a little annoying, I have to write compose+b+u, but I think it is possible to edit the compose key sequences.

webgovernor:
Any thoughts or feelings on the "je" method? Is there an official voting system? If not, there should be IMO.

Thanks again,

Aaron

I personally prefer the je-method. There are several reasons for this.

1) adding the -n to proper names is often results in difficult to pronounce (or at least unpleasant sounding) results. It's a kludge that I often find to be very inelegant.

2) The je preposition exists, and its use is indeterminate by definition. It can be used whenever no other preposition carries the appropriate meaning. There is no need to add a preposition (like na) because we can already use je.

3) There are already extensive examples in Esperanto where je is used in place of the accusative ending.

Just to cite one simple example

Mi iros lundon = mi iros je lundo = I will go on monday.

4) I've never had anyone complain that the didnt understand me when I have used this construction. It seems very easy to understand the intended meaning.

5) The vast majority esperanto community has already rejected the use of na.

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Just a couple of further notes. There's no voting per se in esperanto, but there is an official governing body that controls how the language "officially" evolves (La Akademio de Esperanto). However, the Academy is VERY conservative (rightly so in my opinion) and doesn't alter the language capriciously or according to the latest fad.

Of course, just because the academy hasn't officially sanctioned a change to the language doesn't mean the language can't change or evolve according to how the community uses it. New words are added all the time, the meanings of other words have evolved, and so forth. A lot of people have difficulty making the ĥ sound in esperanto, over the past century it's almost been completely replaced by k. The original word for surgeon was ĥirurgo, but now it's much more common to see kirurgo. It is a growing, living language. New words and constructions are added to esperanto all the time. Some are accepted by the community, others (like Na) are resisted.

This is my problem. Everyone thinks that esperanto is sexist. I, on the other hand, think that this statement is only made by ignorant people. I do believe that there should be a male root (suffix or infix). Assuming we do this, the prefix "Ge-" would not apply. Because what we previously assumed was male, would become both genders (ekz. Bovo would be a bovine, bovino would be a cow, and (making Icx- the suffix) Bovicxo would be a bull.) Whereas Gebovo would usually signify a bovine.

I'm not sure if my words and whatnot are correct. I'm just trying to make my point.