I have a question about mentally translating the idea of 'becoming, coming to be, etc', as in.....

"You are becoming an annoyance", or "You are becoming a pain in the behind/backside!".

"Vi ĝenas min!" doesn't have the precise meaning I'm looking for, and 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi' are both intransitive verbs.

The best that I can come up with right now are:
"Vi komencas ĉagreni min" aŭ "Vi komencas esti ĉagreno".
Eble, "Vi faras vin esti doloro en la postaĵo", aŭ "Vi venas esti doloro en..."?

Also, 'doloro en la postaĵo' would be a literal translation of 'a pain in the behind', which in turn may just be an American idiom that non-English speakers would have trouble with. Can you give me any ideas? Thanks.

'Vi iĝas ĉagrena al mi' might work for you. As for 'a pain in the behind', it is an idiom, and it's litteral meaning should probably translated (ie 'ĝenaĵo' or something of a like idea). If you really want

The prefix ek is used to show that an action has begun. So one possibility may be Vi ekĝenas min!

Actually, iĝi and fariĝi are only intransitive in the way that they don't take a direct object. They are, like esti, coupling verbs taking a 'second subject' which takes the ending of a subject, like this:

La kato iĝas blua - The cat turns blue

Infano iĝos adolto - A child will become an adult.

So you can just use pretty much the same structures as in English, but take care not to literally translate idiomatic expressions.

Dankon, vi ĉiuj,

Rogir, you may have answered my question. I was viewing 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi' as intransitive verbs which could not take a noun object. I had looked at 'iĝi' in the Reta Vortaro and it didn't give me the help I was looking for.

If 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi' work like 'esti' and 'ŝajni', then I could safely say, like in your example above, that:

Ĉevalido iĝos ĉevalo, -- A colt will become a horse;
Vi rapide iĝas ĉagreno, -- You are quickly becoming an annoyance;
Li komencas iĝi 'dorno en la karno', -- He is starting to become a 'thorn in the flesh';

And I will take your advice about not iterally translating idiomatic expressions. I used 'thorn in the flesh' because it is a better known expression in literary works. But somehow, it just doesn't have the force that "a pain in the butt' has.

Hi all.

"A pain in the butt" is very expressive in colloquial English, but it may not sound so "colorful" in other cultures or environments.

Here in Argentina (where we speak what we call Spanish, and which is so close to Spanish from Spain, as American English is to British English), we have a colloquial expression: "un dolor de huevos", litterally "a pain in the eggs". "Huevos" ("eggs") is one of the colloquial names of testicles. However, despite the lack of anatomical coincidence, the meaning is pretty much the same as "a pain in the butt".

I am not sure if "un dolor de huevos" is just an argentinism, or if it is an expression used throughout all the Spanish speaking world. In any case, it is not an elegant expression you may just say in front of whatever audience.

So, if I were translating from English to Spanish (at least for Argentine readers), I would render "a pain in the butt" as "un dolor de huevos", and viceversa.

But for an Esperantist audience (which is, by definition, internacional and intercultural), we would face two problems in translating such idioms: first, that they may not be properly undestood, and second, that what is acceptable in one culture could be too rude in another.

So, short of any already widely accepted Esperantist idiom (which do exist, such as the one you cited: "dorno en la karno"), I would prefer to translate the meaning rather than the expression. "Ĝenaĵo" would be fine for me.

Regards,

Daniel

jawq81:Dankon, vi ĉiuj,

Rogir, you may have answered my question. I was viewing 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi' as intransitive verbs which could not take a noun object. I had looked at 'iĝi' in the Reta Vortaro and it didn't give me the help I was looking for.

If 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi' work like 'esti' and 'ŝajni', then I could safely say, like in your example above, that:

Ĉevalido iĝos ĉevalo, -- A colt will become a horse;
Vi rapide iĝas ĉagreno, -- You are quickly becoming an annoyance;
Li komencas iĝi 'dorno en la karno', -- He is starting to become a 'thorn in the flesh';

And I will take your advice about not iterally translating idiomatic expressions. I used 'thorn in the flesh' because it is a better known expression in literary works. But somehow, it just doesn't have the force that "a pain in the butt' has.

Thank you, danielcg. My remark, which I will not use again on this forum, really is colloquial English. I have lived in, worked in, or traveled through, 40 of our 50 states as well as military bases in many countries around the world and have found it to be a common expression. Now, there is a slightly more vulgar form which I would hesitate to use. Anyway, I understand what you are saying. By the way, in spite of my inadequate knowledge of Spanish, I understood your expression immediately.

I am attempting to learn how to think in Esperanto. I was frustrated in my attempt to form a common concept in Esperanto (that of 'becoming, coming to be') and that was the purpose of this thread. Hopefully, I have come to a better understanding of this point. But you can safely bet that I will encounter more obstacles.

One tactic I use is to write down common, everyday phrases and expressions on an index card and memorize them -- and memorize them to the point where I can use them automatically. Sometimes, learning a phrase or sentence will not only teach you a number of individual words but also the context in which to form your own sentences. Hopefully, you will also learn good grammar this way, but I've already seen enough mistakes on various blog sites that I've learned to be wary.

Daniel, I'm a pragmatic person and when I attempt something new, like learning Esperanto, I try to keep my ego out of it. So, never hesitate to bring something to my attention if you think it necessary. I will not take offense at sincere attempts to help me or to scold me. I do take a dim view of being flamed, however. This is the second time that you've helped me and I appreciate it.

Would you do the same with my English? I'm pretty sure it must have things worth being corrected.

Regards,

Daniel

jawq81:
Daniel, I'm a pragmatic person and when I attempt something new, like learning Esperanto, I try to keep my ego out of it. So, never hesitate to bring something to my attention if you think it necessary. I will not take offense at sincere attempts to help me or to scold me. I do take a dim view of being flamed, however. This is the second time that you've helped me and I appreciate it.