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Please evaluate the quality of this Esperanto for me

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Ubutumwa 21

ururimi: English

PrimeMinisterK (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Nzero 2023 08:34:22

I recently learned that Miyamoto Musashi's famous book The Book of Five Rings was translated into Esperanto. I was taking a look at the listing here:

https://www.lulu.com/shop/daniel-acosta-and-miyamo...

I was able to read through the listing with a dictionary but there were a few things, grammatically, that I wasn't sure about. That may entirely be due to my lack of understanding of Esperanto, however, so I wanted to get other opinions on this. Do you guys detect any grammatical errors? Or does his Esperanto seem good enough that I can purchase this book with the expectation that it will be high-quality EO? I only want to buy it if it's good, clean Esperanto that is free or errors (or that at least has very few).

Here also is a video he made, which will further demonstrate his understanding of the language:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJy-GffkBA

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 16 Nzero 2023 10:34:46

I read the listing or an introduction to the book. Although the author is Venezuelan the text in the introduction looks to my eyes ,eh, suffering from anglicisms and stiff (?) language.

Here is an example from that introduction.
Miyamoto Musashi estas konsiderita kiel la plej granda skermisto iam en la historio de Japanio, en granda parto pro sia preskaŭ superreala disciplino.
Why not simpler oni konsideras?

If you use konsideri in the sence of rigardi 6 (see PIV), the case government is konsideri iun kiel ian.

Iam? So Miyamoto Musashi is not considered to be the most skilled swordsman of all times?

en granda parto? at least not in all of Japan?

superreala? Not superhoma?

Altebrilas (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 16 Nzero 2023 13:28:58

Estas debatinde:

Li estas konsiderata kiel (oni konsideras) la plej grandan skermiston de la tuta japana historio.

Li estas konsiderata kiel (estas konsiderata) la plej granda skermisto de la tuta japana historio.

En granda parto: grandparte pro...

Estas granda parto de la kialoj, ne de Japanio.

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 16 Nzero 2023 15:16:55

@Altebrilas

Quite likely because of the influence of my native language I do not understand the difference between Li estas konsiderata kiel (oni konsideras)… and Li estas konsiderata kiel (estas konsiderata)…. I took a quick look at Tekstaro and it seems that kiel + nominativo is more common than kiel + akuzativo, but I based my example on PIV which uses the latter case government with konsideri in the sense of rigardi. But actually that is not my point, rather I question why use esti-passive at all. Would not oni konsideras… or better yet oni rigardas be a simpler expression?

The hits in Tekstaro do not support the claim that en granda parto would be interchangeable with grandparte.

I emphasise that my impression of the introduction was that it contains many points where I stopped reading and began to wonder whether a certain expression is fluent language if not wrong. What was your impression?

PrimeMinisterK (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 16 Nzero 2023 21:14:40

Thanks for the response, Metsis.

What do you mean exactly by "anglicisms"? You'll have to explain that a little further.

Metsis:Why not simpler oni konsideras?
I'm not sure how you mean. To me, the sentence in question looks perfectly good. The only thing I wondered about is, should it not be konsiderata instead of konsiderita, since Musashi is NOW considered the greatest?

Metsis:If you use konsideri in the sence of rigardi 6 (see PIV), the case government is konsideri iun kiel ian.
You lost me with this one.

Metsis:Iam? So Miyamoto Musashi is not considered to be the most skilled swordsman of all times?
The vortaro here gives "ever" as a possible translation of iam, and if you are saying he is the greatest ever, then that would mean the greatest of all time.

The question that came to my mind was whether skermisto is the best choice for a man who regularly fought duels to the death. Glavisto is probably what I would've gone with.

Metsis:en granda parto? at least not in all of Japan?
I think you have to mind the comma. I believe he is using "en granda parto" the way that one would say in English, "Shakespeare is considered to be the greatest English playwright of all time, IN LARGE PART due to his masterful use of the English language."

Perhaps that is one of those anglicisms you were talking about.

Metsis:superreala? Not superhoma?
Yeah, I had questions about that choice as well. Seems strange. Superhoma does seem a better choice.

Altebrilas (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 16 Nzero 2023 23:43:41

I use Prevo, an app with Esperanto dictionary (seems to be Piv + Revo), to check my words on my smartphone. I like this app which can be downloaded for free.

Kiel is not a preposition, but a conjunction, and Prevo says:
Rim. Ĉar post kiel la verbo estas ofte subkomprenata, oni iam hezitas pri la kazo de la sekvanta substantivo. Por forigi ĉiun dubon, oni nur restarigu la subkomprenatan ideon: mi elektis lin kiel prezidanto (ĉar mi estas prezidanto; la prezidanto estas la sama persono kiel la subjekto); mi elektis lin kiel prezidanton (por fari el li prezidanton; la prezidanto estas la sama persono kiel la komplemento); mi faros vian idaron kiel polvo de la tero (tiel multenombra kiel estas).

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 17 Nzero 2023 07:54:23

Since there were many questions, I answer them in pieces.

konsideri

PrimeMinisterK:
…should it not be konsiderata instead of konsiderita, since Musashi is NOW considered the greatest?
You are absolute right. It may be regarded as a purely stylistic question whether to use the esti- (estas konsiderata) or the oni-passive (oni konsideras), but this nicely demonstrates the difficulty of getting tenses (both of the main verb and the participle) right when using a compound verb. With the simpler one-passive, you are less prone to make such a mistake.

When it comes to meaning of the verb konsideri, PIV gives three definitions.

1 atente esplori ĉiuflanke en la menso

La faraono apogis la kapon sur la mano, konsideris momenton kaj diris… [KaBe]

I am probably not sufficiently versed in English, but I would translate konsideri with "think" or "mull over" here.

2 zorge atenti ion, kiel motivon decidigan por agi aŭ kiel alprenindan decidon

Ili konsideris, ke ne estas inde perdi tempon por la lernado de lingvo. [Z]

note, state, find?

3 rigardi 6

Ŝi konsideradis tiun ĉi ringon kiel ringon de fianĉiĝo. [KaBe]

consider, regard?

Now if you take a look at the sixth definition of rigardi in PIV:

6 atribui enmense ian econ al iu aŭ io (mentally attach a feature or a quality to someone or something)

Mi tiam mem rigardis lin kiel frenezulon. [Z]

Given the other meanings of konsideri my reading is that konsideri requires more mental evaluation (I thought and came to the conclusion that Miyamoto is…) than rigardi (I do not need to think, it is commonly known that Miyamoto is…) when both are used in the same sense.

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 17 Nzero 2023 08:13:27

iam

PIV gives three definitions for iam. Note that the first definition can be used in all tenses, the two other only of the past resp. future.

1 en iu tute ne difinita tempo

Morti iam vi ja devas [Z] : You must die someday

2 en difinita, sed ne precizigita, pasinta tempo

Iam estis reĝido, kiu… [Z] : Once upon a time there was a son of a king, who…

3 en malpreciza estonta tempo

Mi ne povas esperi, ke li iam sukcesos. : I cannot hope he ever succeeds.

This last case, with the future tense, is the only where I can see that iam gets translated to "ever". However the tense in the Miyamoto sentence is not future, but present, so it refers to some undefined time, which does not make sense in the sentence.

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 17 Nzero 2023 08:24:53

PrimeMinisterK:
Glavisto is probably what I would've gone with
Me too.

PrimeMinisterK:
I believe he is using "en granda parto" the way that one would say in English…
Quite likely, but you have to remember that the comma rules in Esperanto are very vague, and given that the expression is used directly after the word Japan, you – at least I – automatically associated parto to that geographical area. Rethinking this the best choice could be ĉefe.

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 17 Nzero 2023 08:55:55

Altebrilas:Kiel is not a preposition, but a conjunction, and Prevo says:
…
I know that kiel is a conjunction, but that does not help, since being a conjunction does not automatically imply nominative or accusative.

There is a whole chapter in PMEG of using kiel for denoting role, function or similar. I think this is one of the cases where Z got a brain fart and created a mess, by not having clear markings for what can be regarded as the essive (in the sense of "state of being"; als der Präsident) and translative ("something becomes something"; zum Präsident) grammatical cases.

What matters in Esperanto is the verb, what case government it takes. PMEG has an example and an explanation in that above mentioned chapter:

      Marta rigardis la parolantan virinon kiel orakolon. [Z] =
      Marta opiniis, ke la parolanta virino estas (simila al) orakolo. (...tiel, kiel oni rigardas orakolon.)

And PIV says the same: if you use konsideri in the sense of rigardi 6, then kiel + akuzativo.

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