I have a question about writing adult correspondents in other parts of the world where customs will surely differ.

First thing, the Eo-English/English-Eo vortaro on lernu.net doesn't always provide a definition of a word that I want to use. I sometimes have to check my copy of J. C. Wells' "Esperanto Dictionary" or David Richardson's "Esperanto: Learning and Using the International Language". How complete is the lernu.net vortaro in other languages? For example, if I wrote the following sentences to a correspondent in another part of the world, how would it be accepted?

Ĉu vi ĉiuj ornamas kristnaskan arbon hejme ĉiu-jare? Kio estas la kutimo en via lando? Ni kutime havas arbon dekorita per lumoj kaj dekoraĵoj. = Do you all decorate a Christmas tree at home every year? What is the custom in your country? We usually have a tree decorated with lights and decorations.

The words ornami and dekori seem to have about the same meaning so you can take your pick on how to word the sentences.

But the idea of Christmas and christmas tree decoration would invoke one image to people in North America, Ireland, the British Isles and Western Europe. How would people in the Southern Hemisphere (South Africa, Argentina, New Zealand, Tahiti, for example) take it? This has nothing to do with politics or religion. I see it as pertaining to differing customs in different lands, so please don't flame me.

I see this as a pertinent question. What does a person in Mexico write to a person in Mongolia? Or a person in Australia write to a person in Iceland? Or a person in Tibet write to a person in Peru? It has to go beyond "My name is John. I have a big garden." If it doesn't, you will soon run out of things to say. See where I'm going with this?

I'd be very interested in hearing from others on this. Thanks.

I never really hear the word "dekori", "ornami" is the usual word I hear.

The lernu dictionary is more complete in some languages than in English, and less complete in other languages. I wouldn't worry about all words that you use being found in the dictionary. Someone learning the language will have to learn these words eventually, whether through the lernu dictionary or through other means.

I wouldn't worry too much about offending people (or whatever) by describing your holiday customs. The thing you have to remember is that people tend to be familiar with certain aspects of US culture, so they will probably know some basic things about the way you live, even if you have no idea how they live.

You might start out by asking the person what the dominant religion is in their area, and what special holidays they celebrate in this season, whether religious holidays or cultural/national/etc. That is, if you are interested in talking about holidays.

But in most cases you'll probably talk with Esperanto correspondents about the same things you'd discuss with someone in your hometown. Your families, your vacation plans, your hobbies, etc. Things like different customs and different holidays will certainly come up. "What are you doing today?" might elicit an answer "I'm baking a Christmas cake". "But it's only November", you might say. "It needs to be aged and fed slowly with alcohol", your friend might say. Or else, "But it's January" you might say, and your friend might say, "We are Russian Orthodox, and our Christmas comes later". These things come out naturally. But every single message won't be an anthropological study in comparison of cultures.

Hi Jan.

The only mistake in your phrase (which may be just a typo) is the lack of accusative in the word "dekoritaN".

The word "dekori" is not found in the "Fundamento de Esperanto", but I could find it in "Reta Vortaro" (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/).

It's close enough to our native language equivalents ("decorate" and "decorar", respectively), so that we may trick ourselves into believing that it is obviously international and immediately understandable by any man or woman on this planet. It may not be so, however. For that reason, I'd prefer the fundamental "ornami".

With regard to different customs, that's precisely why you are corresponding with people of different cultures. In general, you'll find that Esperantists are fairly open minded, and interested in other cultures, so one is not likely to have a big problem over cultural differences, as long as one behaves within respect for each other.

Believe me, corresponding with people from other cultures does enrich one's views and in general it is a rewarding experience.

Up till now, I limited myself to answer your question as an Esperantist, no matter where I was born or where I live (though I'm sure the expert eye will pick up some grammar or spelling mistake or some awkward construction in my posts, which will denote my not being a native English speaker).

Now I'll answer as an Argentine citizen. We do decorate Christmas trees. Though it is plain Summer here, and we are sweating with temperatures of about 30-35 degrees (Celsius, not Farenheit!), we decorate them with artificial snow, and we have poor men disguised as Santa Claus, trapped in those heavy red clothes. Moreover, we are fool enough to eat and drink as if we were enduring the European or North American winter. We pay the price next day, of course.

Regards,

Daniel

jawq81:I have a question about writing adult correspondents in other parts of the world where customs will surely differ.

[...]

Ĉu vi ĉiuj ornamas kristnaskan arbon hejme ĉiu-jare? Kio estas la kutimo en via lando? Ni kutime havas arbon dekorita per lumoj kaj dekoraĵoj. = Do you all decorate a Christmas tree at home every year? What is the custom in your country? We usually have a tree decorated with lights and decorations.

The words ornami and dekori seem to have about the same meaning so you can take your pick on how to word the sentences.

But the idea of Christmas and christmas tree decoration would invoke one image to people in North America, Ireland, the British Isles and Western Europe. How would people in the Southern Hemisphere (South Africa, Argentina, New Zealand, Tahiti, for example) take it? This has nothing to do with politics or religion. I see it as pertaining to differing customs in different lands, so please don't flame me.

Hi Jan, it's me again. I forgot something.

I would advise you to try, as much as possible, to convey the idea in the Esperanto words you know, making use of the wonderful agglutinative feature of our common language. You may need to resort to a dictionary to find an exact equivalent of what you want to say, but let's that be the second choice, not the first.

For instance, today I wrote a post in Esperanto in another forum in Lernu.net, and I used the compound verb "malindigi", tio estas: mal/ind/ig/i = igi ion malinda.

I don't know if anyone has ever used it before. Moreover, I cant't think of any verb with that meaning in my own mother tongue, and, needless to say, neither in English. I'm not stating that there is no such verb, just that it doesn't come to my mind.

But "malindigi" was useful to convey my thoughts, and any Esperantist with a fair knowledge of the affix system can grasp its meaning, so why bother going to the dictionary? (And by the way, I wouldn't even know what to look for in the dictionary!)

Regards,

Daniel

jawq81:First thing, the Eo-English/English-Eo vortaro on lernu.net doesn't always provide a definition of a word that I want to use. I sometimes have to check my copy of J. C. Wells' "Esperanto Dictionary" or David Richardson's "Esperanto: Learning and Using the International Language".

Hello Daniel,

Your paragraph describing Christmas in Argentina was interesting. I got a chuckle out of your remark about suffering the next day. Trust me, too many of us suffer the day after Christmas. I think it is called "tro da manĝaĵo aŭ tro da trinkaĵo". Maybe, "tro da meleagraĵo/bakita kokaĵo". Anyway, we not only suffer but we put on weight.

But the weather, the temperature and the reversal of seasons were some of the things I was thinking about when I wrote the post. It's difficult to imagine Santa and his reindeer when there's no snow on the ground and the temperature is 30 - 35 degrees C. (85 - 95 deg. F.). Also, Santa is supposed to live somewhere around the North Pole, right? Does he have a counterpart who lives in the South Pole? What must a
Tahitian think about all this nuttiness (although I don't think it is nuttiness -- it is a valued part of my traditional beliefs)?

And Christmas is just one example of all the differing beliefs and customs in the world. As you say, it is interesting to hear about other peoples beliefs and customs.

Let me see..... mal + ind + ig + i might be translated as "to cause to be unworthy"? I don't know how I would use that in a sentence. Maybe "Liaj vortoj/agoj malindigis sin."

Mi tute ne estas certa pri tio.

Thanks for the replies.

Jan

Hi Jan.

Believe it or not, we have the same folklore about Santa Claus, the reindeer, etc.

About "malindigi", the story behind it was this.

A member of a forum asked (I don't know if seriously or with the tongue in the cheek), if we Christian Esperantists were not acting against the will of God, as manifested in the Babel Tower, when he confused the languages of the peoples.

I told him that, whether this story was a true fact or a symbol, the punishment was to those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended to all people in all history, and so "tio ne malindigas nian poresperantan laboron" ("this does not make our labor for Esperanto unworthy").

Regards,

Daniel

jawq81:Hello Daniel,

Your paragraph describing Christmas in Argentina was interesting. I got a chuckle out of your remark about suffering the next day. Trust me, too many of us suffer the day after Christmas. I think it is called "tro da manĝaĵo aŭ tro da trinkaĵo". Maybe, "tro da meleagraĵo/bakita kokaĵo". Anyway, we not only suffer but we put on weight.

But the weather, the temperature and the reversal of seasons were some of the things I was thinking about when I wrote the post. It's difficult to imagine Santa and his reindeer when there's no snow on the ground and the temperature is 30 - 35 degrees C. (85 - 95 deg. F.). Also, Santa is supposed to live somewhere around the North Pole, right? Does he have a counterpart who lives in the South Pole? What must a
Tahitian think about all this nuttiness (although I don't think it is nuttiness -- it is a valued part of my traditional beliefs)?

And Christmas is just one example of all the differing beliefs and customs in the world. As you say, it is interesting to hear about other peoples beliefs and customs.

Let me see..... mal + ind + ig + i might be translated as "to cause to be unworthy"? I don't know how I would use that in a sentence. Maybe "Liaj vortoj/agoj malindigis sin."

Mi tute ne estas certa pri tio.

Thanks for the replies.

Jan

Should I have written "for" instead of "to" in these sentence? I read my post again and for some reason this "to" doesn't ring correct in my ear.

Thanks in advance.

Daniel

danielcg:
the punishment was to those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended to all people in all history

danielcg:Should I have written "for" instead of "to" in these this sentence?

"the punishment was to those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended to all people in all history"

You are right on both points. The word 'to' in isolation is not used quite so widely in English; also 'for' is a suitable alternative.

Another possibility here might be 'The punishment was imposed on those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended for all people in history' (you don't need the second all)

Thanks, Miland.

Miland:

danielcg:Should I have written "for" instead of "to" in these this sentence?

"the punishment was to those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended to all people in all history"

You are right on both points. The word 'to' in isolation is not used quite so widely in English; also 'for' is a suitable alternative.

Another possibility here might be 'The punishment was imposed on those people because of their pride, but it was not necessarily intended for all people in history' (you don't need the second all)

jawq81:But the weather, the temperature and the reversal of seasons were some of the things I was thinking about when I wrote the post. It's difficult to imagine Santa and his reindeer when there's no snow on the ground and the temperature is 30 - 35 degrees C. (85 - 95 deg. F.). Also, Santa is supposed to live somewhere around the North Pole, right? Does he have a counterpart who lives in the South Pole?

Actually when I was a little kid I believed Father Christmas visited just Australia, and La Befana (I used to think of her though as the Italian Christmas witch) visited Europe, and Santa Clause (not to be confused with Father Christmas ha ha) went to America and visited those chaps. Also note that Father Christmas also visited Britain, but ONLY after visiting Australia... Man alive, the mind of a child is weird, looking back ha ha.

But in Australia we have this thing of associating Father Christmas with kangaroos, it's kinda sensible considering reindeer would probably die in the heat. And EVERYONE knows that Father Christmas wears thongs (sandals), boardies (beach shorts) and a sweaty tank top with a cork-hat and drinks beer (not really, if that was the case then Australian kids would have all their presents mixed up).

However, due to the heat we have the Christmas Pageant in Adelaide happen well before december (the beginning of either cruddy downpour or 40C temperature) so Father Christmas can meet the kids. We also make sure that Father Christmas is VERY well air conditioned inside shopping centres.

So there's some southern-hemisphere culture for yez!
Note though that Australians understand US tradition completely, only we often don't have stockings by the fireplace considering it would be utterly pointless for an Australian to have a fireplace in use during december, and not that many to my knowledge have one (apart from a few). However over time our traditions are becoming more Americanised because our Christmas movies, media and advertising sadly has no where near as much quality as that from the US.