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Need Some Help

av Sinanthiel, 10 december 2008

Meddelanden: 22

Språk: English

mnlg (Visa profilen) 10 december 2008 16:54:12

"malfermi" is an action opposed to "fermi"; it is not the absence of "fermi". Also, "malhela" is the opposite of light colour, and not a lack of it (at least not to me, but this is open to debate). I concur "mallaboremo" is a better example, but (imo) only because of the fact that the natural absence of work is unemployment. I admit I would have difficulties trying to define "mallabori". To fight against work, perhaps?

I still do not see such a clear link between mal- and apathy/lack of effort.

Miland (Visa profilen) 10 december 2008 19:20:24

I was thinking of malferma and ferma as states. Anyway..

Just got home and opened Butler's dictionary.
Malema: disinclined, averse, indisposed, and others of a similar meaning.
So the very first definition concurs with the translation I used!

I would also say that to be inclined towards is emi (emo is inklino in PIV), so that to be disinclined or inclined away is malemi.

mnlg (Visa profilen) 10 december 2008 20:14:30

My dictionary puts "maleme" in the same category as "malvolonte" and "malinkline". I still consider "neinkline" (nevolonte) and "malinkline" (malvolonte) to be divergent enough. It is the same difference that I see between "lack of will" and "against one's will". The Italian counterparts are "svogliatezza" and "controvoglia".

I guess I will still be avoiding "malem-" for other reasons but if I really had to stick a meaning to it, I would not refer to apathy or indifference.

Miland (Visa profilen) 10 december 2008 21:35:37

'Disinclination' in the context of the given passage, I would say, is something a shade stronger than apathy or indifference. The reason is that resistance to learning from others is a stronger emotional inclination away from something than (for example) voter apathy. This would justify the use of malemo as distinct from ne-emo, quite apart from Butler's dictionary that I referred to.

But of course the truth matters more than opinions which could be debated endlessly. I recall Claude Piron writing somewhere that one problem with translation is the inability to ask the source of a text what they meant. Here we are lucky: we can, if we wish, ask the author whether the interpretation of apathy or something a bit stronger, would be more accurate.

erinja (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 00:52:41

I could agree with "averse" as a good meaning for malema. But not really disinclination. Averse conveys the idea of being actively against something, not simply apathetic.

In any case, Esperanto dictionaries frequently have words used as translations, that I don't fully agree with. Sometimes the Esperanto word doesn't translate well, so they go with an imperfect English choice, rather than explaining the exact meaning of the Esperanto term with many words.

Miland (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 10:44:52

Let us, then, ask the author just what she meant: Sinanthiel, by 'disinclined' in the context you used it, did you mean apathy, or something a bit stronger, like being inclined away from something?

danielcg (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 19:53:27

Hi, Miland.

"Mal-" does not imply abscence of something. Rather, it means the opposite of something. We use "ne-" or "sen-" to imply abscence.

For example:

Utila = useful.
Neutila or senutila = useless.
Malutila = harmful.

Do you see the difference?

Regards,

Daniel

Miland:
mnlg:I prefer neemo or manko de emo.
I considered these alternatives, but most uses of mal seem to me to contrast the presence of something with its absence - emo, in this case. Also 'disinclined' in this context seemed to me to include inner resistance to learning and change, which ne-emo might not convey.

danielcg (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 20:07:50

I'd never thought of this before, but let's consider two different joint words:

Mallaboremo = mal/labor/em/o = emo a la malo de laboro = inclination to rest

Labormalemo = labor/mal/em/o = la malo de emo al laboro = opposition to work

Perhaps both of them would be rendered in English as "lazyness", but the latter seems to imply a stronger opposition to work. I acknowledge I'd never seen "labormalemo" in print (and I don't recall having heard it either), but that's not a problem when you speak an agglutinative language which enables you to invent words to suit your thoughts, as long as they are regularly formed and understandable.

If I'm right about both of them being translated as the same word in English (and if I'm not, please be indulgent and remember this isn't my native language), this does not necessarily make them synonims in Esperanto. It's no wonder that a translation may lose some subtleness, which the translator may need to regain by inserting a phrase that wasn't there in the original (or sometimes by resorting to a footnote, if it's a written translation).

I have heard that the some tribes in Africa have no words in their languages for "snow", while the inuits in the Artic have quite a few words for the different types of ice, which are all rendered in English as "ice" (can someone confirm or rectify this information?).

Regards,

Daniel

Miland:
mnlg:My take of mal is that it contrasts something with its opposite, and not with its absence...
I was thinking of malfermi, and malhela. Words connected with strong emotions may indeed be good examples of straight opposites. But Kontraŭi focusses possibly more on active resistance, whereas I was thinking of inertia, as in mallaboremo. This last one may be the best parallel to what I was getting at.

danielcg (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 20:10:53

"Mallabori" means "to rest".

Rest is the opposite of work. In some cases, the opposite of something and its abscense is the same thing, for instance, "sana" and "malsana", since illness and the abscence of health is the same thing.

To fight against work would still be some kind of work, IMHO.

Regards,

Daniel

mnlg:"malfermi" is an action opposed to "fermi"; it is not the absence of "fermi". Also, "malhela" is the opposite of light colour, and not a lack of it (at least not to me, but this is open to debate). I concur "mallaboremo" is a better example, but (imo) only because of the fact that the natural absence of work is unemployment. I admit I would have difficulties trying to define "mallabori". To fight against work, perhaps?

I still do not see such a clear link between mal- and apathy/lack of effort.

mnlg (Visa profilen) 11 december 2008 20:15:14

danielcg:"Mallabori" means "to rest"
I think "mallabori" is "to actively refrain from working". "Ripozi" is "to rest".

I would never use "mi mallaboras" to mean that I am just relaxing or taking a nap okulumo.gif

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