Mesaĝoj: 44
Lingvo: English
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-decembro-20 17:06:31
I see nothing wrong with neologisms. If they are successful, they will be picked up and become part of the language, as has already happened, and as will surely happen again, in Esperanto and in many other languages. Denying this is denying the concept that Esperanto is just as expressive as any other language.
Priority should be given to existing word roots. For instance, I know a very experienced speaker who constantly uses the word ŝampuo, when harsapo or harlavilo would be perfectly sufficient (the web site Erin mentioned includes this word). Other times the nuance that has to be expressed is strong enough that it would benefit of a word of its own, especially when the existing word roots have already well-established meanings. I would suggest to leave neologisms to a time when one is already experienced enough with the language. I do not think that the presence of a given neologism around "online dictionaries" (why online only, btw?) is of any relevance; the very concept of a neologism is that it is a new word. Or it can be very specific or specialist, and that would also be a reason of exclusion from "online" dictionaries, most of which are not exactly that extensive.
The gist of it is that there are a lot of Esperanto word roots that are quite generic, but sometimes precision is necessary. This is also the main reason why I am not an avid fan of Toki Pona. I prefer having a few more words than risking a misunderstanding. Sometimes compound words are a good substitution to a neologism; other times they can be bulky, impractical, or still not precise enough, and this situation makes a neologism a good choice.
Priority should be given to existing word roots. For instance, I know a very experienced speaker who constantly uses the word ŝampuo, when harsapo or harlavilo would be perfectly sufficient (the web site Erin mentioned includes this word). Other times the nuance that has to be expressed is strong enough that it would benefit of a word of its own, especially when the existing word roots have already well-established meanings. I would suggest to leave neologisms to a time when one is already experienced enough with the language. I do not think that the presence of a given neologism around "online dictionaries" (why online only, btw?) is of any relevance; the very concept of a neologism is that it is a new word. Or it can be very specific or specialist, and that would also be a reason of exclusion from "online" dictionaries, most of which are not exactly that extensive.
The gist of it is that there are a lot of Esperanto word roots that are quite generic, but sometimes precision is necessary. This is also the main reason why I am not an avid fan of Toki Pona. I prefer having a few more words than risking a misunderstanding. Sometimes compound words are a good substitution to a neologism; other times they can be bulky, impractical, or still not precise enough, and this situation makes a neologism a good choice.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2008-decembro-21 03:13:02
I've never heard of 'Toki Pona' until today, I never thought there would be someone other than a fan of 1984 who would try and create a language that simplifies human though...
In german, 'coping' (as in the area of psychology) according to wikipedia is Bewältigungsstrategie. I think the actual verb is bewältigen (cutting off the 'strategie' and '-ung' parts).
In Swedish, 'hantera' seems to translate to 'to handle' (no real source other than google translate with bothers me) and 'klara' means more or less to manage something.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/klara#Swedish
From than you could have 'beveltigi (in which the -igi ending would conflict, e.g. beveltigigi O_O), or if you try to cut down the endings, you might be able to get 'bevelti' but that is bending the rules a bit too much.
Swedish would go to 'klari' but this conflicts with 'klara', or maybe it could turn 'klari' into a form of abstract (idiomatic?) use? I don't know if klari is already used as a verb. Otherwise, 'klarari' could be used. Overall I don't think these words are suitable enough, they seem to conflict too much with existing vocabulary
Using Esperanto vocab, you could use 'vivtrakti' (life-handle). Does this make sense, e.g. 'MI NE VIVTRAKTAS!!!!'?
That however could be confused with something regarding actual life or the soul rather than life as used in English. Maybe 'fatrakti', a shortening of 'farti' + 'trakti' (or farakti
)
In german, 'coping' (as in the area of psychology) according to wikipedia is Bewältigungsstrategie. I think the actual verb is bewältigen (cutting off the 'strategie' and '-ung' parts).
In Swedish, 'hantera' seems to translate to 'to handle' (no real source other than google translate with bothers me) and 'klara' means more or less to manage something.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/klara#Swedish
From than you could have 'beveltigi (in which the -igi ending would conflict, e.g. beveltigigi O_O), or if you try to cut down the endings, you might be able to get 'bevelti' but that is bending the rules a bit too much.
Swedish would go to 'klari' but this conflicts with 'klara', or maybe it could turn 'klari' into a form of abstract (idiomatic?) use? I don't know if klari is already used as a verb. Otherwise, 'klarari' could be used. Overall I don't think these words are suitable enough, they seem to conflict too much with existing vocabulary
Using Esperanto vocab, you could use 'vivtrakti' (life-handle). Does this make sense, e.g. 'MI NE VIVTRAKTAS!!!!'?
That however could be confused with something regarding actual life or the soul rather than life as used in English. Maybe 'fatrakti', a shortening of 'farti' + 'trakti' (or farakti
) ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2008-decembro-21 03:40:03
Ah I see Erinja, you make a good point. Yes Australians do use a lot more slang, that's why I see our variant of English being more likely to break off from the actual language before most other varieties, however many Australians seem to think that having their own language would be stupid and isn't Australian, so in the far future when the US and Australia need translators to communicate, Australians will probably be in denial and going 'nah we don't need translators, americans are just ignorant'.
Anyway that aside, I see what you mean. But I wasn't saying neologisms would be making it easier, I was more or less trying to argue that they would really affect anything - the root words themselves are European (almost west/central European) in nature. However, if we are considering neologisms that most asians will understand, taisho (対処) is a chinese-derived word (which for japanese learners means it is made into a verb by ending 'suru', like 電話 etc).
the last character, '処' is read as 'Sho' in Japanese, 'Chu' (3) in Mandarin, and as Korean '처' (Something like 'cheo' or 'cho') therefore searching for middle ground you could grab 'cho'.
'対' or '對' (chinese variant) is pronounced as 'tai/tsui' in japan, something like 'deoi' or 'teui' in cantonese, tae/dae in Korean, and dui/tui in Chinese. From this 'toi/tui' could be derived as middle ground.
対 = good, right/facing, opposed
処 = place, locale/department.
Theoretically it translates as 'good place' (because all Asian languages are positive). 'Bonloki' doesn't really work in Esperanto, so maybe 'tujcxoji' could be used? If Esperanto used Han characters then the meaning would be obvious, well, at least to those who use them.
However I'm not sure I'd reccomend this method of finding middle ground as it might have the same effect as Volapük and make the word look nothing like the 'original'.
Anyway that aside, I see what you mean. But I wasn't saying neologisms would be making it easier, I was more or less trying to argue that they would really affect anything - the root words themselves are European (almost west/central European) in nature. However, if we are considering neologisms that most asians will understand, taisho (対処) is a chinese-derived word (which for japanese learners means it is made into a verb by ending 'suru', like 電話 etc).
the last character, '処' is read as 'Sho' in Japanese, 'Chu' (3) in Mandarin, and as Korean '처' (Something like 'cheo' or 'cho') therefore searching for middle ground you could grab 'cho'.
'対' or '對' (chinese variant) is pronounced as 'tai/tsui' in japan, something like 'deoi' or 'teui' in cantonese, tae/dae in Korean, and dui/tui in Chinese. From this 'toi/tui' could be derived as middle ground.
対 = good, right/facing, opposed
処 = place, locale/department.
Theoretically it translates as 'good place' (because all Asian languages are positive). 'Bonloki' doesn't really work in Esperanto, so maybe 'tujcxoji' could be used? If Esperanto used Han characters then the meaning would be obvious, well, at least to those who use them.
However I'm not sure I'd reccomend this method of finding middle ground as it might have the same effect as Volapük and make the word look nothing like the 'original'.
matus1940 (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-21 23:04:54
ceigered:Managxi is supposedly in the vortaro, but the meaning is as clear as mud (managxi only appears in the EN - EO section but not EO - EN or EO - EO sections).ReVo doesn't have managxi, but it does have manipuli. How about inventing a neologism for "to cope" on the root man- (hand)? Personally I think the root ten- (elteni, manteni ktp) has some of the flexibility that we want. Alfronti is good too.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-22 10:03:52
Miland, if you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you will find translations of cope [in the sense of successfully handle or deal with a (difficult) situation] for some two dozen different languages.
There does not appear to be sufficient consensus in form to suggest a solution under rule 15, though further exploration might suggest a line of attack in translating the idea behind 'cope', eg seeing how other languages have expressed the idea figuratively.*
Anyway 'cope' doesn't seem to be too remote from 'estri'. [If this seems too specific maybe 'estrumi' - like estri but not quite estri. Compare mastri, mastrumi.]
*There are quite a few figurative uses of 'elporti' in the Tekstaro which come close to the idea of 'cope with'
There does not appear to be sufficient consensus in form to suggest a solution under rule 15, though further exploration might suggest a line of attack in translating the idea behind 'cope', eg seeing how other languages have expressed the idea figuratively.*
Anyway 'cope' doesn't seem to be too remote from 'estri'. [If this seems too specific maybe 'estrumi' - like estri but not quite estri. Compare mastri, mastrumi.]
*There are quite a few figurative uses of 'elporti' in the Tekstaro which come close to the idea of 'cope with'
jagr2808 (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-22 10:22:03
In norwegian we say takle, wich translates to something like alpaŝi.
It can be used to manage something particular or stand alone like "Han taklet det ikke." = "He couldn't cope."
It can be used to manage something particular or stand alone like "Han taklet det ikke." = "He couldn't cope."
vikungen (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-22 14:12:45
jagr2808:In norwegian we say takle, wich translates to something like alpaŝi.We also use makte: "Han maktet det ikke".
It can be used to manage something particular or stand alone like "Han taklet det ikke." = "He couldn't cope."
And even though the connotations of å "mestre" is slightly different these days, it is supposedly a synonym of makte. This would make "estrumi" relevant:
This would make Anyway 'cope' doesn't seem to be too remote from 'estri'. [If this seems too specific maybe 'estrumi' - like estri but not quite estri. Compare mastri, mastrumi.]
I'm at least sure that there are a million ways to convey the intended meaning without resorting to neologisms.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-22 16:00:24
Someone decided to resurrect this topic after nearly 7 years! I'm still sympathetic to tajŝi , based on a suggestion by ceigered (is he still around?).
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-23 08:06:16
Elteni, alfronti, elporti. All these terms encompass dealing with difficulty and are not unconnected with coping, but they approach the subject from different angles.
Elteni - holding out against something.
Alfronti - facing up to something.
Elporti - being able to bear something.
The closest to 'cope' seems to be the latter, with the idea that you have the fortitude required to actively get through the difficulty, whilst elteni seems to suggest more passive resistance.
Elteni - holding out against something.
Alfronti - facing up to something.
Elporti - being able to bear something.
The closest to 'cope' seems to be the latter, with the idea that you have the fortitude required to actively get through the difficulty, whilst elteni seems to suggest more passive resistance.
Rajzino (Montri la profilon) 2015-aŭgusto-23 14:45:17
If I can add my perspective on the matter as a Dutch speaker...
The Van Dale dictionary gives two Dutch translations for "cope", and two for "cope with". The two for "cope" are:
The Van Dale dictionary gives two Dutch translations for "cope", and two for "cope with". The two for "cope" are:
- het aankunnen - het = it; aan = on, to; kunnen = can, be able to. It basically means "to be able to take it on".
So "I can cope" is "Ik kan het aan" in Dutch, which would be something like "mi povas alfronti ĝin" (although this doesn't necessarily communicate that you expect to win said confrontation), or if you're very (read: too) literal, "mi alpovas/surpovas ĝin" or something.
- zich weten te redden - zich = oneself; weten = be able to; te redden = to save/rescue. So "to be able to save oneself".
"He coped well" would be "Hij wist zich goed te redden", which is literally "Li povas savi sin bone"
- het hoofd bieden (aan) - an idiom, literally meaning "to offer one's head (to)". It defines the idiom as "zich keren/teweerstellen tegen", one meaning "to turn against", the other "to put oneself in a position in which one can defend against" (or more literally: "to position to defend (against)" ) Which makes me think maybe "gardpoziciĝi (al)" or "gardpozicigi sin (al)" or something like that might be an option in some contexts.
Examples of the Dutch use (slightly rephrased from Google results) are: "[company] biedt het hoofd aan de concurrentie" ("[company] copes with the competition" ) and "wij helpen mensen het hoofd te bieden aan hun problemen" ("we help people cope with their problems" )
- bestrijden - meaning to fight, combat, resist, counteract, control (e.g. a plague). Which I think is not really the nuance we are looking for here.
Miland:I'm still sympathetic to tajŝi , based on a suggestion by ceigered (is he still around?).Well, according to his profile the last time he logged in on Lernu was in November 2012, so probably not, I'm afraid. Though he may perhaps still be lurking around without logging in.