jawq81:
As for Kwanzaa, do you really know anything about it? Here's a website that will open your eyes if you take the time to read it: http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.asp....

You probably won't accept this website but that doesn't mean that it isn't true. I'll bet that there are many good people around who practice Kwanzaa without really understanding it. But they have a responsibility to understand it.

Wow. I DID read the link you provided with regard to Kwanzaa...and I'm shocked! Why don't people seem to know any of this? At any rate, thank you so much for this enlightening information.

I know very well about Kwanzaa's recent origin. This has been included in every description of Kwanzaa I have ever read. I don't much care about the Symbionese Liberation Army or anything else. I agree with the Kwanzaa principles, and if someone wants to celebrate it, I fully respect that. I also like that people are encouraged to give books or homemade crafts as Kwanzaa gifts, not commercial junk. And of course it is a holiday for African-Americans. It is meant to foster unity among a group that has a difficult history in the US. Jewish holidays foster unity among Jews. Christian holidays - well, they are hardly about unity between Christians and Muslims, are they? Of course not, they are about Christians.

And as for encouraging African-Americans to buy from other African-Americans, I can't really say I'm against that. Evangelical Christians prefer to buy from their own people, is that wrong too? Jews often invest in Jews; why else was it that the Jewish charities were hit hardest by Madoff's Ponzi scheme? People want to support their own communities, and that's ok. And African-Americans are financially disadvantaged, so I definitely don't have a problem with them trying to support entrepreneurs in their own community.

When you come down to it, every holiday has some kind of website about the "dark underside" of the history of the holiday. I could probably find a couple about Christmas, Chanukah, any holiday you can name, probably has a website about its unsavory roots, whether it came from a pagan myth, or one of the creators of the holiday had an affair with his babysitter, or what have you.

And you definitely don't have to know anything about Judaism to wish someone a Happy Chanukah. I have been wished a Happy Yom Kippur before, and I appreciated the thought, even though it is sort of funny, for those who know what Yom Kippur is all about.

erinja:When you come down to it, every holiday has some kind of website about the "dark underside" of the history of the holiday.

Ho yes, there is a dark side to every holiday. And as you put this on the floor, I must admit that despite the fact I like myself, I also have a darker side and mistakes in my own very brief history. Fortunately, people who know me were usually tolerant for those mistakes and didn't start bashing at me all the time because of them: those humans I know are able to forgive and forget, they are able to distinguish that if I am not an angel, I am not incarnated evil either and they know that failure is not only a mark of my imperfection, but a part of every living thing.

The more you become publicly known, the more these little stories seem to become overly exposed and taken as seeds for just about any type of analysis and thesis, mostly crispy ones that get people going and screaming and wondering about what is this world becoming.

Fortunately enough for me, my relatives and friends don't like to play this type of game and would rather enjoy life with people they love. That fits my perceptions too.

erinja:
And you definitely don't have to know anything about Judaism to wish someone a Happy Chanukah. I have been wished a Happy Yom Kippur before, and I appreciated the thought, even though it is sort of funny, for those who know what Yom Kippur is all about.

Actually, as a Christian, I very much appreciate what is being celebrated at Chanukah. After all, we consider Ha Shem to be our God, too, and I always get excited about what my God has done and continues to do. According to the Christian scriptures, Jesus's family celebrated Chanukah (the Festival of Lights).

As to the ominous paganistic roots of Christmas, in the evangelical/Pentecostal Christian community, I think we all know that Jesus wasn't really born on Christmas, and that the timing of the holiday coincides with other winter observances that were prevalent in Rome at the time. As far as I'm concerned, regardless of how it got there, it's simply the date on the calendar when we recognize and rejoice in Emmanuel's coming to earth. I couldn't care less what the pagans were doing in Rome two thousand years ago. Interesting discussion.

I don't usually make New Year's resolutions -- primarily because I rarely keep them. But I'd like to make a resolution this year, and 'erinja', I'd like to address it to you, if I may. I sense that you and I are sparring with each other over politics and our individual world views. I'd like to stop it and I'm saying it on this forum rather than e-mailing you directly because other readers have probably noticed it.

I've never met you but you graded five assignments of an Esperanto course for me some time ago. Since the course I took -- Ana Pana -- was a bit basic for me, I tried to answer the questions and expand on them as much as I could. You indulged me and answered in kind. I learned a lot from you in those five lessons that really had nothing to do with Ana Pana. I want you to know that I appreciate that. Acutally, I consider you to be a highly intelligent and well educated young woman. I rarely envy anyone over anything but I envy you your knowledge of Esperanto. I mean that.

I think our sparring began when I responded to a thread about Barak Obama's winning the election. I expressed shock and sadness over the direction I thought our country was going and was informed quite bluntly that I was wrong and should be ashamed of myself. I value personal responsibility because I believe we are all going to be held accountable for our actions someday. I know that the disparity between your and my beliefs is just an example of the divisiveness within our country. But our different beliefs shouldn't be aired on Lernu.net in front of others around the world. What's that old saying about 'dirty linen'?

Let's take this particular thread as an example. I describe myself as 'self-effacing' and tend to use understatement when talking about personal beliefs. Anything I said about Chanukah and not knowing Jewish beliefs should have been tempered with another statement where I said I enjoyed reading the history of Israel both before and after Israel became a nation in 1948. As an Evangelical Christian, I've studied the Old and the New Testaments as well as history. I'm not ignorant of Jewish customs and I have no problem with using a Chanukah greeting. But this is the 'Christmas' season, not the 'Chanukah' season or the 'Kwanzaa' season or any other kind of season. I was being specific.

I am NOT a fan of multiculturalism or globalism and I view political correctness as an effort on the part of many people to avoid thinking for themselves. Thinking is hard work and people in general tend to be lazy. I intend to think for myself as much as possible. For that reason, I gave you a website about Kwanzaa to read. The citizens of the U. S. have been mislead on many issues lately and this is one of them.

Enough of that. From now on, I am going to make a sincere effort to limit my remarks to the Esperanto language and culture. How about it? Smokum peace pipe?

jawq, I respect that you have different beliefs than mine. And I am happy to keep this forum mainly on Esperanto topics. But I was not the one who started an Obama thread, and I was also not the one who started a "Merry Christmas" thread. With all due respect, I am sure that this is most definitely the "Christmas season" where you live, and also in many other parts of the world. However, only about 33% of people in the world are Christian (and this number is falling), so really, this is the Christmas season only for about a third of the world's population. In Israel, and for Jews worldwide, this is definitely the 'Chanukah season', and not the Christmas season at all. In the Muslim world, this is the "nothing" season as far as I am aware, or perhaps the "New Years" season, because their holidays have passed.

I respect your views, and I am sorry that you are unhappy about the direction of our country. I truly know how you feel because I have been unhappy about the direction of our country for the past 8 years, and that was really depressing for me.

Let me explain my views on Christmas, in particular. I am a firm believer in keeping the 'Christ' in Christmas, as some Christians like to say. I would very much prefer that Christmas be celebrated primarily as a religious holiday, by Christians who believe in the religious meaning of the holiday. I am sure that we can both agree that Christmas belongs in a church, not in a sale at a shopping mall, and that there's something seriously wrong when a man gets trampled to death by shoppers looking for holiday bargains on junk they don't need. Let's keep Christmas religious! It should be about celebrating an important event from the Christian Bible, not about buying things. It is a Christian holiday, not a universal holiday. To me, it devalues the religious meaning of the holiday, to suggest that non-Christians should be celebrating it and wishing each other a "Merry Christmas" without even knowing the meaning of it. Right?

But with all due respect to you and to your beliefs, for lots of people, it is not the Christmas season. Christmas is not a universal holiday of "peace on earth and good will toward men". It is, in fact, a Christian holiday of peace on earth etc. This isn't being PC. It is simple realism. In my part of the world (Washington DC), lots of people don't celebrate Christmas. We have a lot of Hindus, we have a lot of Jews, we have a lot of Muslims. And we have a lot of Ethiopians (the largest concentration outside of Ethiopia), who are mostly Coptic Christians, and will not be celebrating Christmas until January 7th. I am happy to tell a Christian person "Merry Christmas", and I hope that Christians have a wonderful and meaningful holiday. But lots of people here don't celebrate Christmas, so I don't just wish anyone a Merry Christmas unless I know they celebrate it. Otherwise it's a little pointless. There is an Iraqi employee of my company who always sends the whole company a "Happy Ramadan" e-mail. I appreciate his sentiments and good-wishes, but with respect to him, I don't celebrate Ramadan, and most of the US-based employees of the company don't celebrate Ramadan either. It doesn't end up being very meaningful to me, and it has always seemed to me that it would make more sense for him to send his holiday wishes only to the employees in my company's Iraq offices.

Moreover, when you take the time to find out what someone's belief is, and wish them a happy holiday according to what they celebrate, they really appreciate it. Again, it isn't about being PC. It's about extending a hand of friendship to another person, meeting them halfway. It's about showing in interest in that person's life and showing that you pay attention. You wish a Hindu person a happy Diwali; they wish you a happy Christmas. And it shows that you care, that you took the time to find out. Certain people in my office, I don't know how many times I mentioned being Jewish, but they wished me a Merry Christmas anyway. To me, it made me feel that they weren't paying attention, and it was a little discouraging.

So to you jawq, and to all of the Christians who read this forum, I hope you had a wonderful time celebrating the birth of your religion's messiah.

And I hope everyone has had a wonderful winter solstice; the time of the year when the sun has finally completed its apparent journey (at least up here in the northern hemisphere) and the days will become longer, warmer, and with more light. A good reason to celebrate for me, since I like having more light during the day! And I guess it has always been a nice thing for humankind, since it seems that many celebrations are either directly linked or at least loosely related to the (apparent) movement of the sun. But this is a very large box to open, and I won't do it here. If you, my dear reader, have found your path towards Truth, then I wish for you to be able to keep yourself on it. If you are still searching, as I am, then good luck in your quest.

erinja: Christmas is not a universal holiday of "peace on earth and good will toward men". It is, in fact, a Christian holiday of peace on earth etc. This isn't being PC. It is simple realism. In my part of the world (Washington DC), lots of people don't celebrate Christmas. We have a lot of Hindus, we have a lot of Jews, we have a lot of Muslims. And we have a lot of Ethiopians (the largest concentration outside of Ethiopia), who are mostly Coptic Christians, and will not be celebrating Christmas until January 7th.

Specifically, I'd like to point out that there are also many Eastern Orthodox Christians (mainly the Russians, Serbians, and Jerusalem Patriarchate, also, interestingly, the Alaskan diocese of the Americans) who also won't be celebrating the Nativity until January 7.
On a general note, Erinja, this was VERY well said, and I commend thee for it. May I borrow it? I promise I'll give due credit .

I take it that those who celebrate Chrissie on January the 7th belong to a denomination that uses the old calendar, yes?

I have to agree with the view that I don't like the whole "let's make Christmas politically correct by making it 'Winter Festival' and by making it a holiday for all religions" etc, I find it sad that this is happening namely because it just allows everyone to be exploited. I don't think that non-christians shouldn't be allowed to celebrate christmas (it is their choice) but I think it would be better if it was reaffirmed that Christmas celebrates Christ's birth and not Father Christmas's work schedule.

Also, sorry if this is irrelevant, but I've noticed that people of different faiths generally seem to think that Christmas should be regarded as a Christian holiday, but many atheists I know (not all!) often use the argument that Christ should be taken out of Christmas because it offends people of different faiths :S - since when did all this become so complicated and political? Oh well it's the 27th now so now it's time to celebrate January sales and the bargains (joking ha ha)

ceigered:I take it that those who celebrate Chrissie on January the 7th belong to a denomination that uses the old calendar, yes?

There is no mention in the Bible of the day when Jesus was born, and also, as you point it out, there have been changes in our calendar in the past centuries. Christmas has been celebrated at different times in the past, sometimes even on the spring equinox (late March), which sort of makes sense if you consider the beginning of spring as the beginning of the year, and that we count years from the birth of Jesus.

Christmas has become, at least in Italy and in other western nations that I have visited, some sort of family holiday, with little religious significance, but perhaps this is more true of predominantly christian communities. What I like about Christmas is that it is generally a good time, with presents and warmth and time spent with friends or family. So basically I like its non-religious side and in a way I think I am doing nothing wrong, since it is quite likely that, in past times, Christmas has ended up swallowing and including traditions, rites and customs from other celebrations, perhaps in an attempt to overshadow/nullify them. So if I consider/celebrate only those, I feel like I am righting a historical wrong