I'm having a hard time getting a definite answer on this, so I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance. I'm trying to figure out the usual, standard way to handle "if I had....I would have" types of structures. In English, this involves the past and conditional perfect tense.

I realize that simple tenses are preferred to both compound and perfect tenses in Esperanto as long as the sense is clear: "Mi mangxas" is preferred over "Mi estas mangxanta" (for I am eating) and "Mi mangxis" or "Mi jam mangxis" is preferrible to "mi estas mangxinta" (for I have eaten), etc. My question is, does this also extend to the -us ending? Should we use "verb-us" for conditional perfect (would have) constructions?

What about IF sentences whose main clause is a hypothetical past perfect tense to express a supposition? Let me give a few examples:

ENGLISH:
If I had seen this book, I would have bought it.

In Esperanto, should this be "Se mi vidus cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin."?

Or is it better to say "Se mi vidus cxi tiun libron, mi acxetus gxin" for "...would have bought it"?

That's ambiguous, isn't it? It could also mean "If I saw the book, I would buy it".

On the other hand, how about "Se mi estus vidinta cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin" making both parts a compound verb?

Or, is it possible (or preferrible) to say something like "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi acxetus gxin." or "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin."?

This is kicking my butt...I'm trying to figure out not only what is grammatcally possible, but also, what is reasonable, usualy, and customary from a stylistic standpoint. I can think of so many times when this comes up--- "If I saw that, I'd call the cops." or "If I had left earlier, I would have missed the speech", etc., etc., so I really want to know how to do this right.

Dankon,
Troy

Most of your propositions are good and clear to me (even though some don't translate exactly your initial sentence, as you rightly mentioned), but the following is wrong wrong:

Or, is it possible (or preferrible) to say something like "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi acxetus gxin." or "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin."?

There is no such thing as a conditional participle in Esperanto, for conditional doesn't have a specific time attached to it.

Past participles show that the state or action it describes happened before what it is linked to, present participles show that the events are simultaneous and future participles show that the state or action was or is yet to happen at the moment you refering to. Conditional participles have no home in this context and that is why they are not to be used (but some keep arguing they should, so in the end, it will be whatever the mass will decide... or whatever the speaker or writer will decide).

For your question ("If I had seen this book, I would have bought it"), I would incline to something like this:

"Vidinte tiun ĉi libron, mi estus aĉetinta ĝin." (so very close to your last proposition: I like it because it is rather simpler than the other ones).

My (maybe wrong) feeling is that "estus" in the second part of the sentence clarifies well enough that I did not actually see the book.

Hi Troy.

There are three types of conditions: probable, improbable and impossible.

In English these are expressed this way:

Probable: If I meet the right woman, I will marry her. (If + simple present + future).

Improbable: If I met the right woman, I would marry her. (If + simple past + simple conditional).

Impossible: If I had met the right woman, I would have married her. (If + past perfect + conditional perfect).

I am certain about the translation of the first two, not so much about the third.

Probable: Se mi ekkonas la ĝustan virinon, mi edziĝos al ŝi. (Se + ...as + ...os).

Improbable: Se mi ekkonus la ĝustan virinon, mi edziĝus al ŝi. (Se + ...us + ...us).

What about the impossible? I think it could be expressed this way, but I'm not so certain as in the other cases:

Se mi estus ekkoninta la ĝustan virinon, mi estus edziĝinta al ŝi (Se + ...us ...inta + ...us ...inta).

OK, we are using compound tenses in both parts of the condition. So what? Though simple tenses are preferred in Esperanto, compound tenses exist for a reason and there's nothing wrong with using them when really needed, as I tend to think is this case.

With regard to "Vidunte ĉi tiun libron..." and similar constructions, though theoretically I see no problem in replacing the first part of the condicion with a gerund, the sense might not be so clear.

Hope this helps. Regards,

Daniel

Polaris:I'm having a hard time getting a definite answer on this, so I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance. I'm trying to figure out the usual, standard way to handle "if I had....I would have" types of structures. In English, this involves the past and conditional perfect tense.

I realize that simple tenses are preferred to both compound and perfect tenses in Esperanto as long as the sense is clear: "Mi mangxas" is preferred over "Mi estas mangxanta" (for I am eating) and "Mi mangxis" or "Mi jam mangxis" is preferrible to "mi estas mangxinta" (for I have eaten), etc. My question is, does this also extend to the -us ending? Should we use "verb-us" for conditional perfect (would have) constructions?

What about IF sentences whose main clause is a hypothetical past perfect tense to express a supposition? Let me give a few examples:

ENGLISH:
If I had seen this book, I would have bought it.

In Esperanto, should this be "Se mi vidus cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin."?

Or is it better to say "Se mi vidus cxi tiun libron, mi acxetus gxin" for "...would have bought it"?

That's ambiguous, isn't it? It could also mean "If I saw the book, I would buy it".

On the other hand, how about "Se mi estus vidinta cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin" making both parts a compound verb?

Or, is it possible (or preferrible) to say something like "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi acxetus gxin." or "Vidunte cxi tiun libron, mi estus acxetinta gxin."?

I don't know if this is what you are looking for or not, but this comes directly from Teach Yourself Esperanto, by J. Cresswell and J. Hartley:

-us is used particularly in conditional sentences, i.e., where the fulfilment of an action or state is dependent on another supposed, imagined condition:
Se mi estus riĉa, mi loĝus en Kanado. = If I were rich, I should live in Canada.
Se vi lavus ĝin, ĝi estus pura. = If you washed it, it would be clean.
Se mi estus riĉa, mi aĉetus tiom da aferoj. = If I were rich, I would buy so many things.

And in the "A Complete Grammar of Esperanto," by Ivy Kellerman, the author provides more info under the chapter 'Conditional Mood'. This is available from Project Gutenberg and can be downloaded from this site: http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/results

Se li vidus tion, li plorus. = If he should see that, he would weep.
Mi ĝoje helpus vin, se mi povus. = I would gladly help you, if I could.
Se li estus kaptata, li estus punata. = If he should be caught, he would be punished.
Se vi metus ilin sur la dorson de la azeno, ĝi portus ilin. = If you should put them on the donkey's back, it would carry them.

I hope this helps, although it may not be exactly what you are looking for.

Thank you VERY MUCH Filu, Daniel, and Jawq--I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this. I've been going around practicing with other sentences using this structure just so I could get used to it. I like what you said about compound tenses, Daniel...sometimes that's simply the way to say it.

One thing I really love about this forum is that when I don't know the answer to something, I can ask here and know I'll get good, solid answer from someone who knows more than I do.

Thanks again, guys!