Further to my last longwinded ramble (lol), I take it that the 'here be dragons', of the Olde Worlde maps, would be simply: 'Estas drakoj!'. Jes? Ne?

And if "follow" rather than "follows" were really the correct form, if we are speaking in present tense, we need a pronoun or a subject. "You follow your star". "I follow your star".

Okay. Jes, me komprenas! I get your point about this:

*Mi sekvas vian stelon.
*La astrologiistoj sekvas vian stelon.
*Sekv-U vian stelon.

I see. I see.

The Esperanto speaker has the same thought process on seeing 'Sekvas vian stelon'. Who is my subject?, the Esperanto speaker wants to know. Who is following your star? The second thing is that the speaker understands it as a statement of fact. Someone does follow my star; I just have to figure out who. But it isn't a statement of fact, it's a suggestion, so the -u form is correct.

I see! You explain things very thoroughly. You're a goldmine of information!

I won't quote to save space, but I understand now what you mean about 'it'.

Yesterday, I would have said. 'Estas pluvas', but it is in fact simply, 'Pluvas'. I see!

Wow, I've really made discoveries with this information Erinje, thank you.



Edit:

Hmm. I've just realised I don't understand where the 'ĉi' comes into designating a thing as being 'here', now,'tie', I understand, because it means, 'in that place', which can mean either 'here' or 'there', but why 'ĉi tie', for here?

If 'ĉi' indicates the universal or 'kolectiva', then how does the word 'here' relate to 'universally or collectively in that place.'?

Is it because if something is universal, we are inevitably a part of it, and so, 'in that place', must inevitably be part of us, and so must be 'here', rather than 'there'?

Am I over-analysing things again? Lol!

*Drako*:Hmm. I've just realised I don't understand where the 'ĉi' comes into designating a thing as being 'here', now,'tie', I understand, because it means, 'in that place', which can mean either 'here' or 'there', but why 'ĉi tie', for here?

...

If 'ĉi' indicates the universal or 'kolectiva', then how does the word 'here' relate to 'universally or collectively in that place.'?

The "ĉi" here is not the "ĉi" that is used as a building block of the correlatives. In this usage, "ĉi" is a separate word that simply brings what it's modifying "closer" to the subject.

"Tie", by itself, only means "there". "Ĉi" implies a "there" that is close by, which is another way of saying "here".

Same with "tiu" - by itself it only means "that (one or person)". If we are pointing at something by our feet, we may rather say "ĉi tiu"; a "that" very close by, or "this".

This extends to time based words beyond the correlatives as well. "Ĉi-nokto" isn't just "night", it's "the close-by night", or "tonight". It doesn't extend to regular nouns, though - "ĉi-taso" is not customarily used to refer to the cup sitting in front of you; for that you would say "ĉi tiu taso" (this cup).

(On a side note, when "ĉi" is being used with a word other than a correlative, the two words are customarily hyphenated. With the correlatives, the hyphen is dropped. I don't know the reason for this.)

"Ĉi taso" would be completely correct, though this would be a rare form.

I normally think of "ĉi" as turning "that" into "this". So "ĉi nokto" means this night, or tonight. Tie would be that place (=there); ĉi tie would be this place, or "here".

Regarding hyphens, the rule is that ĉi is only allowed to be used with a hyphen if you are combining it with an adverb. So you would say ĉi-nokte (tonight, in adverb form = "on this night"), or ĉi-proksime (near here, in adverb form = "in a place near here"), or ĉi-tase (this cup, in adverb form = "by means of this cup")

Ĉi combined with a correlative or a noun does not get the hyphen.

So ĉi tie, ĉi nokto, ĉi taso, but ĉi-nokte, ĉi-tase.

Drako, this post might be a little confusing to you. A brief explanation is that in Esperanto, we use adverbs for a lot more things than we do in English. The adverb -e ending doesn't only indicate the manner in which you do an action, like -ly in English. It can also show a location of an action ("hejme" = "at home"), or a time of an action ("ĵaŭde" = "on Thursday"), or a means of doing something ("aŭte" = "by car")

In this way, it can act a little like the ablative case in Latin, if you are familiar with Latin at all.

Ah, and I'd say "ĉi tie estas drakoj" for "here be dragons".

The "here" part is important in this case, since we'd be marking it on a map, and we want to show that there are dragons in this exact place. If you were to simply write "estas drakoj" on a map, it might indicate that dragons exist, in general, but it wouldn't tell the reader exactly where the dragons are (although the reader might infer that the dragons are located in the place where the warning is written on the map)

erinja:Regarding hyphens, the rule is that ĉi is only allowed to be used with a hyphen if you are combining it with an adverb...

Ĉi combined with a correlative or a noun does not get the hyphen.

So ĉi tie, ĉi nokto, ĉi taso, but ĉi-nokte, ĉi-tase.

"Being Colloquial In Esperanto" says (on page 53 of my copy):

The same ĉi, by the way, is occasionally used in connection with other words than T- or Ĉ- correlatives, usually as a prefix and always hyphenated.

The examples he gives are, however, both adverbs (although he doesn't specifically limit his statement to adverbs the way Erinja did - but if Erinja says it's so, I'm fully inclined to accept that it is so).

He goes on to say:

Most Esperantists regard use of ĉi directly with a noun as jarring.

He then gives the example of "ĉi viro" (unhyphenated in the text) and calls it "clumsy", providing several viable alternative wordings.

*Drako*:My learning style is very erractic and disorganised. I find it really hard to sit and go through a sequence of steps, 1, 2, 3, because my mind will wander off onto something else, and if I'm forced to comply with linear regularity of method, I'll get upset, frustrated and blow up.

Hey, Drako, I totally get that, as my learning style is very similar. I tend to flip around through my books, in a quite nonlinear way as well. Shoot, I didn't even write this post in linear order (seriously, posts like this grow practically organically in my hands).

You might like the book Step By Step In Esperanto, by Montagu C Butler. Don't be fooled by the linear implication of the title. The book is actually composed of very, very short chapters that, although they slowly build on each other, appear as if they were practically in random order. Each chapter (and "chapter" might be a misnomer, since some individual pages contain two or three of them) is about something different. You can read the book sequentially, and still feel like you've been flitting from one idea to the next as the wind blows you.

Since my learning style is also disorganized, and that doesn't always do a person in good stead, I've worked out a method that works fairly well for me - it might work for you as well.

When I get a textbook (such as I did for Esperanto) I will sit down and read the whole thing very quickly. I'm reading slower than just a skimming speed, but I'm not trying to commit anything to memory. If I find a section that I just don't get, I immediately skip it and just keep going. If I find a section that really looks interesting and I want to read carefully, I will bookmark it (because I can ALWAYS come back later). The idea is to go for breadth rather than depth. I'm not so much getting my feet wet as getting my whole body damp.

Then, once I've done that, I go through it again, but this time in any order I want, and at a much slower pace, over a longer period of time.

First, it's amazing how much stuff sticks when you're not actually trying to memorize it and you're just blowing past it. Second, having a decent overview of the subject makes learning the details a LOT easier. You can start taking little random bites and it's easier to relate them to other things - you'll remember that you saw something or other over THERE that relates to what you're reading over HERE, and you can bounce over there to fill things in a bit. What you don't do is miss big chunks that derail good understanding. You might have only a fuzzy idea about some of the chunks, but you will at least have met ALL of them.

The only danger is getting sidetracked as you're blowing through the material the first time. You have to be brutal with yourself and consciously try to not get TOO into what you're reading such that you slow down - there'll be plenty of time for that later.

I'm not saying that you should do this, but I can say that it works really well for me, and my learning style sounds very similar to yours. So, it's just a suggestion of something to try sometime, if you're in the mood.

Thanks again both of you.

I'll experiment using 'ĉi' in context, in order to get a feel for it.

You know, although 'ĉi', isn't the same as the correlative prefix, 'ĉi', for 'the universal', I do find it helpful to try and draw some association to help me remember. For if something is 'universal', if it pervades all things, then it is inevitably close, and so helps me to remember 'ĉi', as indicating the closest proximity.

It interests me that 'ĉi', sounds similar to, 'chi', the indefinable but perceptible 'life-force', or spiritual current that pervades the universe. I do wonder then, from where Dr. Zamenhof may have derived his inspiration for this word and correlative prefix.

You might like the book Step By Step In Esperanto, by Montagu C Butler.

I've just ordered a copy.

I suspect this book must be out of print, because a UK bookshop on Amazon is selling this at £111, and that's for a second hand copy! I found one for £6 from a private seller. Hmm, that's a large difference!

You can read the book sequentially, and still feel like you've been flitting from one idea to the next as the wind blows you.

Sounds good to me.

First, it's amazing how much stuff sticks when you're not actually trying to memorize it and you're just blowing past it. Second, having a decent overview of the subject makes learning the details a LOT easier. You can start taking little random bites and it's easier to relate them to other things - you'll remember that you saw something or other over THERE that relates to what you're reading over HERE, and you can bounce over there to fill things in a bit. What you don't do is miss big chunks that derail good understanding. You might have only a fuzzy idea about some of the chunks, but you will at least have met ALL of them.

Yes, that's how I am with books anyway. I have a scan through it, and then dive into certain chunks here and there, according to the nature of my interest at that time, but never in order.

This is why with fiction, I have a hard time trying to read novels, I am very impatient with being forced to start at the beginning and work through to the end in a nice linear fashion. It's a psychic straitjacket. There are some great pieces of literature I would love to read, and I've tried, but I just don't have the patience to not deviate from the track. That's why I love things like religious scriptures, you can crack them open aat any point, it doesn't matter, and I love archaic language. Stories and poems I like a lot, but novels test my patience, no matter how wonderfully written they may be. I love reference books though!

Anyway, thanks for the recommendation. I'll look forward to the book.

Drako, this post might be a little confusing to you. A brief explanation is that in Esperanto, we use adverbs for a lot more things than we do in English. The adverb -e ending doesn't only indicate the manner in which you do an action, like -ly in English. It can also show a location of an action ("hejme" = "at home"), or a time of an action ("ĵaŭde" = "on Thursday"), or a means of doing something ("aŭte" = "by car")

-e = -ly, and also, 'at' (place of action), 'on' (time of action), 'by' (means of action).

Thanks Erinje. I'll have a think about making adverbs in Esperanto. I'll experiment with things in context.

To be more precise, -e corresponds, in English, to -ly, -ways, -wise and a- but yes, adverbs in Esperanto are much more elastic and powerful.

Thanks mnlg. I've made a note of these too.

Hence:

Thuswise - tiele.
Contrariwise - kontraŭe.
Sideways - flanke.
Longways - longe.
amend - flike.
abet - asiste.
abracadabra - kidding.

Would 'amended', therefore be, 'flikise'? I take it I am complicating things unnecessarily if I think like this?

Thinking about your points Erinje, on the place, time and means of action, for Esperanto adverbs, I tried to put this new knowledge into context:

Feste nokto neĝis (unnecessary 'it' omitted ).

La parcelo alvenis tempen.

Ni flugis al Marson kosmoŝipen.

Mi ne ŝatas esti entombigejn.

Ni havis feston Halovinen.

Hopefully, these will all make perfect sense in Esperanto.

I find it very elegant to express things in this way.

Thinking about how to use 'here' and 'there':

Feste nokto neĝis. Tie, en Skotlando, la neĝo densis. Ĉi tie, en Anglo, la neĝo maldensis.

Another:

Ĉi-tago mi fartas bone. Ĉi tie mi sidas, feliĉe lernado la Esperanton.

I think I am better understanding the adverbs than the use of 'ĉi', which these examples may demonstrate.

One thing that worries me, is that I am concerned that I will come to forget these things that I have learned as I proceed to go on and learn new things, and so I may find myself going around in circles.

My notes are an anarchial rag-bag! I think the best thing is to just try and put as many things as I learn into context again and again until the knowledge just becomes automatic. I hope.