Thoughts: Two of Esperanto's Exceptions and Why They Are There??
kelle poolt FreeXenon, 20. jaanuar 2009
Postitused: 32
Keel: English
russ (Näita profiili) 23. jaanuar 2009 22:57.01
Senlando:I'm not sure if I've read your last post right, but the ŭ "can" go before a consonants also, as in aŭtomobilo and eŭropa. from what I've heard the only time you can't use ŭ was at the beginning of a word. Therefore it always has to have a vowel before it.It's more restricted than that; ŭ normally only comes after a or e, i.e. in the pairs aŭ and eŭ.
ceigered (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2009 5:14.07
Mi piedbatis Joe'n (vs) Mi piedbatis Joe-n. (vs) Mi piedbatis Joen.
At least with the apostrophe it looks like the accusative ending is part of the word and not a separate entity.
And I'd say iux and oux are also other possible constructions, as they aren't necessarily impossible to pronounce, but definitely rare.
RiotNrrd (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2009 5:22.14
RiotNrrd:I'm going to have to review my textbooks and see if I can't find where it states the rule I've been using (I'm just about to leave for work, so it'll have to wait until tonight). Now I'm wondering if it doesn't say it anywhere and my memory is just playing tricks on me.Indeed, I have now searched through all of my materials, and have come to the conclusion that, regarding using "al" to replace the accusative: my memory was playing tricks on me.
I haven't a clue how this rule made it into my head. I must have picked it up SOMEWHERE, but nowhere that I can now locate - no doubt I misinterpreted something along the line and it stuck. So, I retract my (quite erroneous) claim.
And so today I know more than I did yesterday. Which makes today a good day!
Miland (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2009 13:07.59
RiotNrrd: regarding using "al" to replace the accusative.. I must have picked it up SOMEWHERE..I believe it was here. I accepted it myself easily enough at the time, but have now put in a retraction.
Maybe the reason for its plausibility was that there is a very wide range of situations in which the accusative can replace al, which may have created the misleading impression that one could always do the opposite. But that is not so.
So I learned something too, about accepting plausible statements that turn out not to be true. But I still found it hard not to think like yourself, surely I must have seen it somewhere...
erinja (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2009 14:34.26
ceigered:Back to name munging using '-n', why is there a '-' before the n? Sorry I would have thought a ' would have looked much cleaner... e.g.Using the - in writing indicates to the reader that "Joe" is not an Esperanto word, and shouldn't necessarily be pronounced in an Esperanto way. Otherwise it would be read as "Yo-ehn".
Mi piedbatis Joe'n (vs) Mi piedbatis Joe-n. (vs) Mi piedbatis Joen.
At least with the apostrophe it looks like the accusative ending is part of the word and not a separate entity.
As for the use of a hyphen as opposed to another symbol, this has been around since the beginning of Esperanto. We frequently use it for abbreviations.
sinjoro = s-ro
sinjorino = s-ino
numero = n-ro
doktoro = d-ro
We also use it for mixing numerals with letters.
So you would say unua, dua, tria. But you would say 1-a, 2-a, 3-a if you wanted to use numerals instead of writing out the number as a word.
I think the idea of using the - to mix "unlike forms" may be how people started using it on names not written with Esperanto orthography.
But back to Joe; since Joe's name is not written with Esperanto orthography, I would be inclined to write "Mi piedbatis Joe", without the -n, treating his name as a foreign word - even though it ends with a vowel. I would do this because of its foreign orthography. Speaking, of course, you'd be saying "Mi piedbatis Ĝon" (as if verbally assuming he writes his name Ĝo), or else still treat it as foreign, and pronounce "Mi piedbatis Ĝo".
ceigered (Näita profiili) 24. jaanuar 2009 16:04.36
I also did not think of using '1-a', '2-a' etc. Can these come as just '1a', '2a' etc (without the '-')?
Kat (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2009 17:50.59
russ:...except that the word for the letter ŭ is "ŭo". : )Senlando:I'm not sure if I've read your last post right, but the ŭ "can" go before a consonants also, as in aŭtomobilo and eŭropa. from what I've heard the only time you can't use ŭ was at the beginning of a word. Therefore it always has to have a vowel before it.It's more restricted than that; ŭ normally only comes after a or e, i.e. in the pairs aŭ and eŭ.
jchthys (Näita profiili) 19. mai 2009 18:18.31
ceigered:I also did not think of using '1-a', '2-a' etc. Can these come as just '1a', '2a' etc (without the '-')?I think that:
[LISTO]
It’s up to the user
1-a, 2-a, … is the most common form
1ª, 2ª, … is also acceptable :-þ[/list]
Rogir (Näita profiili) 20. mai 2009 16:49.53
darkweasel (Näita profiili) 21. mai 2009 10:23.46
ceigered:oux yes, iux no since that's written "ju"
And I'd say iux and oux are also other possible constructions, as they aren't necessarily impossible to pronounce, but definitely rare.
