Повідомлення: 16
Мова: English
ceigered (Переглянути профіль) 22 січня 2009 р. 05:17:30
When an English R is used:
- Do non-English speakers recognise the R, especially when after 't' or 'd'?
- Is the 'R' the defining point in the accent, or are there other markers that differentiate the Americans from the Irish (who for the most part use a rhotic R)?
- When an English speaker can't roll the R using the alveolar position in the mouth, how many then use the English R and how many try the French/German/Danish R?
And for the sake of enjoyment I've decided to make this a poll as well...
Cheers!
russ (Переглянути профіль) 22 січня 2009 р. 11:24:13
ceigered:- Do non-English speakers recognise the R, especially when after 't' or 'd'?Plenty of English-speaking Esperantists learn to make the Esperanto R, of course (or already know it from having learned other languages like Spanish, Polish, etc).
- Is the 'R' the defining point in the accent, or are there other markers that differentiate the Americans from the Irish (who for the most part use a rhotic R)?
- When an English speaker can't roll the R using the alveolar position in the mouth, how many then use the English R and how many try the French/German/Danish R?
But an English R in Esperanto is indeed a recognizable marker of Englishness in the speaker's pronunciation. (It usually doesn't seem to cause confusion in the listener, in my experience, though.)
The other obvious major one I can think of is making vowels too long or diphthongy, e.g. saying "robo" as if it were "roŭboŭ" or "roubou", etc, not short and clean as in Spanish, Italian, Polish, hell, most languages really
There are plenty of other indicators of English-speaker-ness not related to pronunciation, of course, e.g. false friend mistakes, mispronunciation due to a similar English word, grammar style, vocabulary, etc.
erinja (Переглянути профіль) 22 січня 2009 р. 16:08:11
Russ is right about the vowel differences. The R is most definitely not the only thing that marks out English-speakers. Vowel pronunciation is a major issue as well.
I will add that I don't normally like to speak of the Esperanto accents of "English speakers". The Esperanto accent of a British person is distinctly different from an accent of an American, and easily recognizable to an experienced speaker. Although correct pronunciation of vowels is a problem for all English-speakers, the mistakes of a British person are very different from the mistakes of an American, and so forth, for the rest of the English-speaking world. So I prefer to differentiate by country.
And before anyone comments on this, yes, I am very well aware that Britain has a wide variety of accents, and of course this would come through as well, in someone's Esperanto.
I didn't vote in the poll. A user of the English R would sound like wherever they came from; it would depend more on the vowels than on the R. Also, intonation. I have often heard the American accent described as "flat"; we tend to use less 'musical' intonation than other English speakers. This comes through in Esperanto as well, if you speak with a poor accent.
ceigered (Переглянути профіль) 22 січня 2009 р. 16:33:04
russ:The other obvious major one I can think of is making vowels too long or diphthongy, e.g. saying "robo" as if it were "roŭboŭ" or "roubou", etc, not short and clean as in Spanish, Italian, Polish, hell, most languages reallyI see what you are saying. For me though, the problem is preventing schwas, diphthongs or long vowels aren't so much a problem.
erinja: I have often heard the American accent described as "flat"; we tend to use less 'musical' intonation than other English speakers. This comes through in Esperanto as well, if you speak with a poor accent.Actually it is interesting that the intonation varies per region. Depending on the speaker, often with Irish and Australian speakers you'll find that a normal sentence will often end with with the 'tone' of the voice higher at the end. Often I try to carry the music through into Esperanto just to make my voice sound interesting
jawq81 (Переглянути профіль) 24 січня 2009 р. 20:26:42
russ (Переглянути профіль) 24 січня 2009 р. 22:23:39
jawq81:Want a challenge? Try pronouncing "ŝraŭbo" (screw) with a flick of your tongue over the 'r'. That's an Esperanto mouthful!"ŝraŭbo"? Kids today, whining about Esperanto pronunciation... Get off my lawn, you spoiled whippersnappers!
If you want a real challenge, try saying the Polish word for beetle: "chrząszcz" (sounds closest to "ĥĵoŝĉ" in Esperanto orthography). Then you'll be grateful to say "ŝraŭbo"!
Français (Переглянути профіль) 24 січня 2009 р. 22:29:26
But, it takes practice and that is all. My spouse is from Israel and lives here in Québec with me, and his first language is Hebrew, then English. His French is his third language, but this is what we have been communicating in, since my first language is French. I notice he has a major problem with saying "gr" together, like "grosse" and he has a problem with saying words like "centre" because the French "r" is complicated for many! But, after practice, is isn't bad. I can say all the words without a problem! He can't, but the more he practices and understands how to use the mouth to function pronunciation, he will. Hopefully!
robinast (Переглянути профіль) 25 січня 2009 р. 09:39:33
russ: try saying the Polish word for beetle: "chrząszcz" (sounds closest to "ĥĵoŝĉ" in Esperanto orthography). Then you'll be grateful to say "ŝraŭbo"!Somehow, it seems to me that the "ĥĵ" and "ŝĉ" combinations are a bit easier to pronounce than the "ŝr" because of the less complicated tongue movements.
Quite a hard nut for me was a Russian phrase "младщий сержант" (close to "mladŝtŝii serĵant" in Esperanto orthography): it took me months before I could say this properly!
Amike,
Harri.
ceigered (Переглянути профіль) 25 січня 2009 р. 11:14:23
russ:If you want a real challenge, try saying the Polish word for beetle: "chrząszcz" (sounds closest to "ĥĵoŝĉ" in Esperanto orthography). Then you'll be grateful to say "ŝraŭbo"!Another reason why Polish is innately awesome.
russ (Переглянути профіль) 25 січня 2009 р. 23:14:15
Français:The word Ŝrumpi is hard for me to say! I always say "sh-ah-r-um-pi" sort of adding a light vowel because it is hard to say "ŝr" together!I am surprised to hear about ŝr being hard for different people. It never seemed particularly troublesome to me. The sequence exists in English, even at the beginning of words as in ŝraŭbo: shrapnel, shred, shrewd, shriek, shrill, shrimp, shrine, shrink, shrivel, shroud, shrub, shrug... Of course you need to do it with the Esperanto r, not the English r, but issues with learning Esperanto r are independent from ŝr in particular (i.e., if you're having trouble rolling your r, that's going to be a problem in every sequence with r, not just in ŝr).
But, it takes practice and that is all.
So what is hard about it, for people who are having trouble? Is it because of it being at the start of the word? If so, can you say something like "reŝraŭbi" more easily? Do you have trouble with the English shr-words above? If so, do you have trouble with the English words like ashram, dishrag, fishrod, etc where there's a vowel before the shr?