Mensagens: 26
Idioma: English
robinast (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 13:40:08
Do you have apples? I would take one.
Ĉu vi havas pomojn? Mi prenus unun.
to translate one anecdote
traduki unun anekdoton
to translate two anecdotes
traduki du anekdotojn
Harri.
tommjames (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 13:57:41
erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 16:26:30
robinast:Did I translate the following phrases correctly:No -n on unu.
Do you have apples? I would take one.
Ĉu vi havas pomojn? Mi prenus unun.
However, if it is in adjective form, it can get the -n.
Mi sxatas la unuan hundon = I like the first dog.
Also note that the -us ending doesn't always work the same as "would" in English. We sometimes use "would" to express politeness. "I would like to take one" is a polite way to say "I want one".
It doesn't work that way in Esperanto. -us means "would", but only in the conditional sense, not the polite sense. So if you say "Mi prenus unu", it means "I would take one..." and the listener is waiting for some kind of "if". Under what condition would you take one?, the listener is wondering. I would take one if you didn't mind. I would take one if I were hungry. I would take one if I had the money to pay for it.
Use of -us almost implies a "no" answer. If I say "Mi irus al Hispanio" ("I would go to Spain"), it implies that I would go if I could, but I can't go, so I will not go.
robinast (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 16:58:05
So, I could say "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesas" or "Mi prenus unu se vi permesas"? I thought initially that the "unu" is a pronoun (not numeral) in sentences like the last one.
Amike,
Harri.
erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 17:59:41
robinast:Thank you for the explanations, Erinja!The tense is important here. If you say "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesas", it means "I would take an apple if you permit it (that is, if you do permit it, right now)"
So, I could say "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesas" or "Mi prenus unu se vi permesas"? I thought initially that the "unu" is a pronoun (not numeral) in sentences like the last one.
Amike,
Harri.
The -us ending, however, is more commonly found paired with another -us. "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesus" - I would take an apple if you would permit it. This would be more common wording, in my opinion. We are using the second -us because we don't know if the person will permit it or not.
Unu is never used as a pronoun; it is only used as a number, just like any other number.
darkweasel (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 18:04:53
These are grammatically numerals, not nouns, and as such do not take the accusative case suffix. However, unu (and only unu) is sometimes used adjectivally or demonstratively, meaning "a certain", and in such cases it may take the plural affix -j, just as the demonstrative pronoun tiu does. In such use unu is irregular in that it doesn't take the accusative affix -n in the singular, but does in the plural.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_grammar#N...
Matthieu (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 18:21:01
darkweasel:However, unu (and only unu) is sometimes used adjectivally or demonstratively, meaning "a certain", and in such cases it may take the plural affix -jIs this true? I have never seen or heard unuj. (Isn't iuj better for this meaning?)
Answer to myself: according to PMEG this is correct. However I'm still surprised.
tommjames (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 18:34:02
Mutusen:Is this true? I have never seen or heard unuj. (Isn't iuj better for this meaning?)Interesting, I was totally unaware of this.
Answer to myself: according to PMEG this is correct. However I'm still surprised.
Although I don't really see why you couldn't express any of those ideas with regular words like 'iuj' and 'certaj' etc. Don't think I'll ever use it but nice to discover something new!
Edit: Mutusen, I just noticed PMEG explains why 'iuj' may not be suitable, in the section "Unu, iu kaj certa «"
robinast (Mostrar o perfil) 26 de janeiro de 2009 18:34:58
erinja:This is probably a nice example here where the different languages make the same things different in speakers minds
The tense is important here. If you say "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesas", it means "I would take an apple if you permit it (that is, if you do permit it, right now)"
The -us ending, however, is more commonly found paired with another -us. "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesus" - I would take an apple if you would permit it. This would be more common wording, in my opinion. We are using the second -us because we don't know if the person will permit it or not.
In Estonian, we generally do not use the conditional twice in situations like this and therefore I am in difficulties even to understand why the other conditional is needed at all... In Estonian, the usage of the conditional twice would be a bit peculiar and maybe indicates that the speaker is somewhat priggish 
No, no, do not think I'm thinking that this is also so while speaking English!! And how about the Esperanto - should the double conditional be used as in English?
I.e "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesus" and not "Mi prenus pomon se vi permesas"
Amike,
Harri.
erinja (Mostrar o perfil) 27 de janeiro de 2009 01:38:18
Regarding unuj - yes, it's correct. But it's rare, I've hardly ever seen it used. Although I frequently use 'unuo' and 'unuoj' (unit/units)
I only use "unu" to mean "a certain"; I prefer "iu". This is a usage you have to be careful with, because some speakers feel tempted to use "unu" where they would use an indefinite article in their native language. French speakers, for example, sometimes have this problem. You end up having people say things like "Mi konas unu viron kiu havas unu hundon" (I know a man who has a dog - but it literally means "I know one man who has one dog", and sounds a little funny)