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Translation q..

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Ubutumwa 14

ururimi: English

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 2 Ruhuhuma 2009 15:47:18

Anybody want to have a go translating this to Esperanto?:

"It was August, and it shouldn't have been raining."

I'm not looking for the "correct" translation as such, as this idea can probably be expressed in a number of equally valid ways, but I'm interested to know what you guys would consider to be the more usual way of saying it.

The best I can come up with are:

Estis Aŭgusto kaj ne estintu pluve
Estis Aŭgusto kaj ne devis pluvi

But I'm not sure if these usages are correct in Esperanto. Any thoughts anyone?

Ironchef (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 2 Ruhuhuma 2009 16:00:01

tommjames:Anybody want to have a go translating this to Esperanto?:

"It was August, and it shouldn't have been raining."
Perhaps in a more prosaic sense?

[LISTO]
Estis Aŭgusto, kaj ne devis havi rajton pluvi
It was August and it shouldn't have had the right to rain.[/list]

Rogir (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 2 Ruhuhuma 2009 19:50:28

Estis aŭgusto, kaj en aŭgusto ne pluvu. Not exact, but I think this might be meant.

jchthys (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 05:01:30

I think Rogir's translation was pretty good, though I think the best is tommjames's second original suggestion:

Estis aŭgusto, kaj ne devis pluvi.

Rohan (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 05:20:04

jchthys:I think Rogir's translation was pretty good, though I think the best is tommjames's second original suggestion:

Estis aŭgusto, kaj ne devis pluvi.
Here's my suggestion:

'Estis aŭgusto, kaj devus ne pluvi.'

Also, PMEG has a small discussion about 'ne devi' and 'devi ne'. Check it out! ridulo.gif

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/gravaj_verboj/p...

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 05:43:24

I like Rohan's suggestion, as it assumes the possibility that raining is not normal but could occur.

Without the use of the conditional it sounds as if the rain is being commanded to not fall or something unnatural like that... But then the second part of Rohans sentence feels like it is in another tense- I mean its understandable what he is saying, but the changing of tenses doesn't seem right....
Ekzemple:
'Estis aŭgusto, kaj devus ne pluvi.'
'It was August, and it shouldn't rain'
PAST - CONDITIONAL - INFINITIVE

Where as the original is:
"It was August, and it shouldn't have been raining."
PAST - CONDITIONAL - PAST (continuative)

Because Esperanto doesn't have past and future tense infinitives, the best I can come up with is here:
"Estis auxgusto, kaj devus ne esti pluvinta"

I'm sure that one of you could do better than me, but I think what has to be noted are the tenses above.

Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 13:01:56

The expression 'should not have' is difficult to translate. Here is an earlier related thread.

Since many people use devintus for 'should have', one possibility is:

Estis aŭgusto, kaj devintus ne pluvi.

But we could focus on the meaning:

Estis aŭgusto, kaj la pluvo estis neatendita.

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 14:06:36

Miland:Since many people use devintus for 'should have', one possibility is:

Estis aŭgusto, kaj ne devintus pluvi.
I think that's probably about right. Although I'd shift the "ne" to after "devintus" rather than before it, in line with what Rohan pointed out from the PMEG.

jchthys (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 14:35:01

I don't know if I like the conditional. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the conditional used for conditions? There isn't a condition here, at least not in the English.

In stilted English, the sentence would read:
"...and it ought [past tense] not to be raining."

Word-for-word, this makes (I think) good Esperanto:
"...kaj devis ne pluvi."

Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Ruhuhuma 2009 14:51:09

The problem is that devi, 'to have to', is stronger than 'should', which has no direct equivalent in Esperanto. However devus is used by convention; see Butler's Step by Step, paras 863 and 866. Also PMEG (first example in each box).

Situations where we would use complex tenses or 'should' in English may be situations where we have to concentrate on getting the essential meaning across, rather than translating every word.

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