erinja:Incidentally, Nick, I don't know if you've checked out the "Franko-tekstoj" in the lernu library section, but they have phrase by phrase translations, so the parallel text type of format might be helpful to you. I know that that sort of text can be helpful for some learners.

I cannot see a link about "Franko-tekstoj". Using that phrase on Google gives one page on the entire net:

http://vikio.lernu.net/Planoj/NovaStrukturo

That seems to mention such a thing, but no link to any content.

- a tendency to combine a prefix or suffix plus a preposition to form a verb, so that the derivation isn't immediately clear (eligi = to elicit; troigi = to exaggerate)

That's the biggest killer of the lot. "eligi", I would have initially thought to mean "to make out"! I would then have wondered if the speaker was American (as the term is not really even British English). If the speaker wasn't from the US, I would then have wondered if it really meant something like to put something outside (as in "put the cat out" type of thing). Possibly I would wonder if the speaker was trying to talk about a particular form of unreliable birth control supposedly favoured by Catholics, if you follow my line of reasoning. When none of those matched the context, I would probably have given up bothering to read the rest of the text. The vortaro here gives it as "take out, utter, pull out, express", which is not quite the same as "elicit".

"troigi" as exaggerate, is more understandable. But even there I would probably have taken it as "to make too big" in a literal sense and possibly misunderstood completely as a result.

But these are not the only ones. I am fairly sure I saw something like "iĝebla" a while back by which the writer meant "renderable". It was only because the English and E-o text were given together that I understood it at all. Whatever it was I couldn't find it in a dictionary.

But I wonder why progressing students have to learn this. I've read some (a very little) of Zammenhof's writings. He is easier to understand than some of the stuff I see elsewhere. If the simple way of saying it was good enough for the creator of the language, I wonder why the rest of us have to learn the hard way?

Maybe others do not find the sorts of things I rant on about as big a problem???? I don't know. I am not sure what sort of figures there are for how many people try to learn E-o versus how many give up before becoming at all confident with the language?

For me this is an important point. I made extremely rapid progress with Kurso de Esperanto and such like. In fact I devoured course material in a matter of about 3 days. Since then, despite the fact that I have added more vocabulary, I've actually become less confident about approaching an E-o group to try to actually speak this language.

Nick

RiotNrrd:And if they aren't turning out to be fun, then don't bother solving them.

Yuh, well, you hit the nail on the head there.

Kwekubo:In reality, people don't overdo the nonce-words; just read through the average article in LMD or Libera Folio. We're talking about Esperanto here, not Esperant'!

Yes. I looked up the links. Quite a lof of it I can just simply read. It is understandable.

However, I take a look at the E-o forum here, and I see posted today, for example, "gramatikscion plifleksibliĝi!" What???!!!! The first word is a compound of two others that needn't have been compounded and the second isn't even readable. The vortaro says there is no such word and the computer program behind the vortaro can't decipher its pieces either.

Yes, I can do better than the program. After pausing to parse this construction, it seems to be "more flexible become", which sort of communicates in the context. But how you pronounce such a jumble of word pieces, I don't know. And parsing it would have been quicker if the various components had not been compounded.

I rest my case. Colloquial E-o is a dialect. Furthermore, it is not taught. One has to sort of absorb it.

Esperantists joke about English compound tenses, German gendered nouns and such like. The house at home should be put in order before mocking other languages.

Nick

The constrution in question here (gramatikscio plifleksebligxi), Nw2394, came from my mind.

First of all, I was not aware that it is a standard expectation on the E-o forum to comment in simple Esperanto so that komencantoj can read it without bothering to consider the meaning for themselves or work towards understanding that. From now on you have my solemn word that I will never again write in a way that makes me comfortable or that might be understood equally well by others who are comfortble with complex additions to undescriptive root words.

The reason for my usage of the aforementioned term, which according to you appears to be verbal diarreah, is to prevent myself from having to resort tedious webs of words to explain what to me, at any rate, is a simple concept to understand. I could have said, for example,

"Nu, vi konsideru la fakton ke kvankam la gramatiko en via songxo strangas, gxi ankaux eble helpos vin igi vian scion pri la gramatiko pli fleksebla."

However, I am almost certain that I erred in the above paragraph. Why bother risking gramatical error, taking up additional space on the page, and using an overdne amount of words to express a simple concept, when I could do it all in two words? That logic, to me, seems far more sensible than the idea of constructing fiddly, emotion-lacking sentences, especially considering the fact that I was speaking to someone who seems to have a good handle on the language anyway.

You are obviously very intelligent, and with a better understanding of languages in general than myself. I congratulate you. On that note, however, perhaps you should ask yourself what you expect from Esperanto. Judging by the vast majority of posts here, you seem to be at war with the language- you appear to want to force the language into a different format than is naturally dictated by its speakers. Is the language really worth your learning it if it causes you that much irritation? Perhaps your be better off learning a moe logical language where the rules are not able to be bent or twisted to the limits of human thought.

I applaud your desire to approve- I sincerely do. I'm a new speaker myself, and a few months ago I would have squinted and dashed to the dictionary myself upon seeing the construction which I spewed out above. But rather than fighting with the language and bemoaning its disadvantages, I chose to press on, accept that I can't understand everything at once, and look back in a few months to see if I've improved. And I always do, as I'm sure you would as well.

I realize I've ranted here, and I apologize, but I just want you to know that if you decide that you can put aside the safety of critiquing the language, then perhaps you will be able to progress faster and learn at the rapid rate which you clearly desire. The colloquilisms in Esperanto are not just a hinderance but a strength, and I for one am very glad that there is finaly a language which can both communicate clearly and efficiently and reduce people to tears with frustration. Being a native English speaker, I grew up with a reasonably difficult and overly complex language, and after the half year I've spent studying E-o, I've realized that I shouldn't try to force the language to cohere to my values. I realized that I should not try to make the language ny less obscure or more inflexible. Rather, I've realized that I should allow the language to make my mind more flexible and abstract than before. As corny as it sounds,I have found it true: Esperanto truly is a state of mind.

I'm sorry I caused you inconvenience.

I think we're talking about the difference between conversational and written language. It has nothing to do with dialects, I think. If you read a newspaper, the articles are written in a more formal tone than a person would use to tell a friend the exact same information. It tends to be more formal grammatically. In online forums, people tend to use spoken language to communicate, even though it's written, because the atmosphere is conversational.

Nick, it sounds like you're doing quite well on the written form of the language, the formal writing - this is what you would find in websites like Libera Folio and Wikipedia, which are intended to be newsy and formal rather than conversational. So now it's time for the next step - the informal language. In blogs, in conversations with people, the language will be less formal. Plus Esperanto speakers love word games and they love saying things in creative ways. With a friend, for fun, you might intentionally say something in a difficult way. Occasionally I'll say "Jenas la miec'" instead of "jen mi", just because it's more playful (though I would not do this with a beginner)

But honestly I think it is just a stylistic difference. The gossip page of a newspaper will be written very differently, with very different language, than the front page news articles. And in turn, the opinion page where readers write in will be very different as well. Does that mean a newspaper contains three dialects? Not really; it's just three levels of formality, each with a certain grammar and vocabulary appropriate to the purpose of the writing. The basic English grammar remains the same; the differences lie in the vocabulary and word usage (for instance, the word "newsy" that I used above - can you imagine this word being used in a serious news article? I think not. For that matter, "I think not" would also not appear in a news article, except as part of someone's quote.)

nw2394:I cannot see a link about "Franko-tekstoj". Using that phrase on Google gives one page on the entire net:

http://vikio.lernu.net/Planoj/NovaStrukturo

That seems to mention such a thing, but no link to any content.

Here's the intro page.

Oops Kwekubo, I think you accidentally posted the wrong link for the Franko texts. Here they are:

http://en.lernu.net/biblioteko/franko/index.php

erinja:Oops Kwekubo, I think you accidentally posted the wrong link for the Franko texts. Here they are:

http://en.lernu.net/biblioteko/franko/index.php

Quite right erinja, apparently I corrected my link just before you posted yours!

Novico Dektri:The constrution in question here (gramatikscio plifleksebligxi), Nw2394, came from my mind.

There have been many times before in that forum where I have wished to post a query here in the English forum about the meaning of a construction. However, until now, I have always refrained as it would inevitably personalise things.

In this instance I felt I had no choice but to drag up an actual example of what I meant. I wasn't intended in any way as a dig at you personally as I could have found many other examples. It just happened to be the first one I saw.

First of all, I was not aware that it is a standard expectation on the E-o forum to comment in simple Esperanto so that komencantoj can read it...

No, neither you nor anyone else in this or any other language has an obligation to speak or write in a particular way.

However, Esperanto purports to be an International Auxilliary Language. As such, if it ever really becomes that, it will be used by a great many people sporadically. A huge proportion of its speakers will not be 100% fluent and, indeed, have no wish to be so.

Therefore, if the Esperanto community actually wishes to support that notion, then it is incumbent on that community not just to be sceptical about neologisms (which it seems to actually be), but also to resist trends in the usage which new people will not generally find easy to cope with.

If the Esperanto community does not do that, it will drift into its own idioms (and I suggest it is doing exactly that) and become no easier than any other language.

It is not up to me, you or any individual what the answer to that conundrum is. However, if the Esperanto community as whole chooses the latter path, don't be surprised if the language remains the secret language of the elite few and never realises Zammenhof's hopes for it.

Personally, I am interested in Esperanto as an IAL and being able to achieve a level, personally, of basic fluency and competence. The literature, songs and sense of community are nice, but they are not why I am here.

Nick

Kwekubo:

erinja:Oops Kwekubo, I think you accidentally posted the wrong link for the Franko texts. Here they are:

http://en.lernu.net/biblioteko/franko/index.php

Quite right erinja, apparently I corrected my link just before you posted yours!

My Russian is not what it used to be, but when I went to the given link and searched for Eo (эсперанто) all I could find was the following: (http://www.multikulti.ru/Esperanto/info/Esperanto_...

Can anyone help, it may be of use to a novice like me.