erinja:Perhaps if Esperanto speakers had the practice of using separating written words, mal/san/ul/ejo, or mal-san-ul-ejo, he would have been less upset by it.

I know what you mean, but at the same time my reaction to that is... yuck. To my way of thinking, that's putting training wheels on a tricycle.

erinja:But Esperanto speakers get over the need for that relatively quickly, though not within the couple of months that Nick seemed to hope for.

I have to say that in my own experience I got past where that would have been helpful within a week or so. And since none of my introductory materials actually involved split words like that, I didn't even notice it as an issue.

Although, to be fair, I studied German for 4 1/2 years, and German tends towards compound words, so it's possible that's why I feel the compounding in Esperanto to be perfectly natural. Others coming to Esperanto as their "first second language" might require a LITTLE bit of that at first, just to get their feet wet. I certainly wouldn't want that kind of parsing to become a crutch, though.

RiotNrrd:

erinja:Perhaps if Esperanto speakers had the practice of using separating written words, mal/san/ul/ejo, or mal-san-ul-ejo, he would have been less upset by it.

I know what you mean, but at the same time my reaction to that is... yuck. To my way of thinking, that's putting training wheels on a tricycle.

I feel your pain! Actually my reaction to it is exactly the same, but if it's a text specifically written in easy language, specifically targeted at beginners, I don't really see a problem with it. Everyone has a different learning style, some people could be really helped by that kind of breakdown. Or else, I have seen some Esperanto texts aimed at beginners that broke down only more difficult words. So they would leave a word like "grandega" (fairly obvious) as it is, but break down something like "malpermesigi"

I have also sometimes seen the format where the word in the text itself is normal, then the broken down version is in parentheses. So it would be written as "malpermesigi {mal/permes/ig/i)"

I'm a bit annoyed that someone would have a tantrum and storm off, after several people go to the bother of trying to explain things to them in so many different ways. Don't suppose it could have been helped though, to have a conversation both parties have to listen.

Regarding hyphenation - if breaking words down is what works for you at the moment, it might be a good idea to get your hands on a copy or two of Kontakto. It usually has one or two specially written articles that come with extra hyphens in multiple-root words, and explanatory notes for infrequent words.

Kwekubo:I'm a bit annoyed that someone would have a tantrum and storm off, after several people go to the bother of trying to explain things to them in so many different ways. Don't suppose it could have been helped though, to have a conversation both parties have to listen.

Right. I think we tried pretty much everything - being conciliatory, being blunt, suggesting resources, etc. But I think some people do have this tendency, that when they find something difficult, the fault always lies outside themselves and they lash out at whatever they see. A case in point, I thought it was interesting that so much vitriol was directed at the lernu! word parser, "Well if your own word parser can't handle it, what hope do I have?". It seems clear to me that a human brain is smarter than an automated word parser; the parser is, after all, only as good as the programmer who designed it (and the dictionary he gave it to work with). But I think reason didn't really play a role in this anyway, it looks like it was pointless of us to even debate the point, though we didn't know that from the start.

Regarding hyphenation - if breaking words down is what works for you at the moment, it might be a good idea to get your hands on a copy or two of Kontakto. It usually has one or two specially written articles that come with extra hyphens in multiple-root words, and explanatory notes for infrequent words.

That's true, and those articles are specifically marked too, you just look for the "Facila" or "Tre facila" icon next to it. Kontakto is a great magazine for Esperanto learners; it isn't 100% aimed at beginners, so beginners can read the easier-language articles plus try their hand at the full-fledged Esperanto. In addition, the articles written in easier language are also interesting and don't give you a "dumbed down" feeling like some beginner's texts do.

I've got the same problems as you (except for the pronunciation, my spanish has taken that out of the picture.) Also, i have alot of trouble remember correlatives... a lot!

Librum:I've got the same problems as you (except for the pronunciation, my spanish has taken that out of the picture.) Also, i have alot of trouble remember correlatives... a lot!

I had the same problem, because I learned them all in one lesson - thats stupid. If you learn them splitted in several lessons it´s much easier to keep them in mind.

Woodstock:I had the same problem, because I learned them all in one lesson - thats stupid. If you learn them splitted in several lessons it´s much easier to keep them in mind.

I learned them all in two lessons, which both had *tons* of practice. I think that sitting and memorizing these doesn't work that well, you need to use them again and again to work the meanings into your head.

I would start with just two "prefixes" and two "suffixes", practice a lot with those until you feel very comfortable with the meanings of all possible combinations of those, and then start adding more. I would start with ki/, ti/, /o, and /u. I think those are the most important, since they are the most common and fundamental to understanding a lot of texts. Then I would study /am, and /el. Again, lots of practice with combinations of those, plus the ones above which you should have mastered already. Then I would do i/ and cxi/, and after that neni/, /om and /es.

Well, it´s nice to see the taxonomy and the structure of the several correlatives, therefore I think it´s useful to look at them all at a glance. But it makes definitively no sense, to learn them at one fell swoop, as said.

Suffixes are the next issue, I agree... Same procedure, with learning more and more words, the prefixes and suffixes will memorise by and by I think.

That's funny, because I did the opposite. I tried learning them piecemeal, a few at a time, and had nothing but frustration. I finally just memorized the table and with a little bit of practice I had them all down. For me, the key was seeing the pattern, it's so logical. Once I had the pattern down, I drilled with flash cards a few times and that was that.

It did take me a while to stop translating into english and just see the esperanto word, but that would be true either way.

Another thing that helped me, was expressing them according to the pattern rather than the most direct english translation...

Instead of seeing kiam as "when" I saw it as "(at) what time"

instead of seing kiel as "how" I saw it as "(in) what manner"

etc...

That REALLY helped, because it reinforced the pattern. Rather than memorizing 45 words, I had to memorize 14 and just put them together according to the pattern. For me that was a lot easier. But the difference for me was focusing on the pattern (the table) rather than the individual words.

Some may find my way works better for them. For others, this approach probably wouldn't work so well. I think the main thing when learning a language is to find your strengths and play to them. People can have very different learning styles, so what works brilliantly for one person may reduce another to banging their head against the wall.

erinja:

Woodstock:I had the same problem, because I learned them all in one lesson - thats stupid. If you learn them splitted in several lessons it´s much easier to keep them in mind.

I learned them all in two lessons, which both had *tons* of practice. I think that sitting and memorizing these doesn't work that well, you need to use them again and again to work the meanings into your head.

I would start with just two "prefixes" and two "suffixes", practice a lot with those until you feel very comfortable with the meanings of all possible combinations of those, and then start adding more. I would start with ki/, ti/, /o, and /u. I think those are the most important, since they are the most common and fundamental to understanding a lot of texts. Then I would study /am, and /el. Again, lots of practice with combinations of those, plus the ones above which you should have mastered already. Then I would do i/ and cxi/, and after that neni/, /om and /es.

Dear folks

I have followed this thread about the dialogue between a disgruntled learner of Esperanto and more experienced Esperantistoj with interest, as my level is roughly between the two.
If I may, I would like to (gently) pat Erinja on the head for dealing with a difficult customer with such patience! Nice going, if a komencinto may say so.
Anyway, this thread caused me to think about the problem of misleading people about the difficulty involved in learning a language. Perhaps more could and should be done to warn beginners about this. Otherwise people may go through courses quickly and then wonder why they can't instantly decode hard compound words. Perhaps the speakers in the dialogues in some courses should turn to the reader and said 'Kara studentoj, ne imagu ke vi necese kapablos kompreni cxion en UKoj, simple cxar vi legas ke mi faras gxin en la dudeka leciono!'
Of course a dose of humility is needed too; I accept that I may not have a gift for languages which I believe is as real as one for Mathematics or music. So, for those of use who are not geniuses at something, plenty of effort is needed to become fluent. Sed mi tamen esperas atingi fluencon iutage, amikoj!

Bondeziron
Miland