Ah, nun mi komprenas vian vidpunkton, Ironchef.

I do agree there.

Abras:So I doubt I will ever learn Interlingua, Ido, Lojban, etc. Still, I am very much open to learning and/or exploring new languages. Toki Pona, for example, has something oddly attractive about it. I could see myself dipping into it over the summer.

Also, are you guys aware of this book,In the Land of Invented Languages? I am dimly aware of a few books sort of like it but this seems to be the most recent and mainstream. I've been wondering what's it going to be like for months now.

Sorry Abras, it seems that your post became forgotten - I myself haven't seen that book yet, but it does look interesting. It makes me wonder though if there is a book yet that teaches all the simple conlangs, at least at a basic level. That would be a wonderful resource (probably not viable though, most info on different conlangs is restricted to the internet only at the moment).

Toki Pona is unique in itself, unlike Interlingua and Ido the purpose is a bit different, more intended for simple and easy communication and the effects on the speaker (those latter two have always been intended as International Languages to some extent). Admittedly, Lojban is also unique as it has a different purpose, to be precise and neutral to an extent which casts shadows on Esperanto - the problem with that though is that it has a flow and grammar which can often scare off learners such as myself (I think though my biggest problem with it is that it resembles a programming language too much, which for me is frustrating because I can't make programs out of it!)

ceigered:...Lojban is also unique as it has a different purpose...it resembles a programming language too much, which for me is frustrating because I can't make programs out of it!

Interesting you say that.... Lojban is a descendant of Loglan, partly through evolution and mostly through legal wranglings with its founders. However it was written:

"The language’s grammar is based on predicate logic, which is why it was named Loglan, an abbreviation for "logical language". This has been thought to make it suitable for human-computer communication, which led Robert A. Heinlein to mention the language in his science fiction novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, and as a fully fledged computer language in The Number of the Beast."

So maybe some day people will be writing software using Lojban as the coding language via a human-computer-interface (USB 4.0 presumably )

I think the power of Esperanto to create a vast lexicon of new words to describe any situation is what makes it so useful as an aux lang.

Beginners can start with an incredibly tiny vocabulary and use the regular morphology and syntax of the language to speak of just about anything. With more practice, nothing is unutterable: from a Chinese proverb to an Inuit (or Australian Aboriginal) folk legend; from an Old English poem to a cosmopolitan scientist's latest discovery.

Works quite well dontchya think?

The example of the Navajo language is quite interesting. I read somewhere that the navajo root words are primarily verbs, and nouns are derived from that verbs. So, clock is literally translated by "something That goes slowly in a circle".

Other example: chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫhtsoh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí: « Tank » (Mil.). Literally:
car+crawl on something (caterpillar tracks): tracked vehicle
+make explosion with+big: canon
+on + they sit down: smthing used to sit

,

jan aleksan:Other example: chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫhtsoh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí: « Tank » (Mil.). Literally:
car+crawl on something (caterpillar tracks): tracked vehicle
+make explosion with+big: canon
+on + they sit down: smthing used to sit

Ok... so "beware with the tank" always finishes a bit late, doesn't it?



Amike,

Daniel.

Ironchef:

ceigered:...Lojban is also unique as it has a different purpose...it resembles a programming language too much, which for me is frustrating because I can't make programs out of it!

Interesting you say that.... Lojban is a descendant of Loglan, partly through evolution and mostly through legal wranglings with its founders. However it was written:

"The language’s grammar is based on predicate logic, which is why it was named Loglan, an abbreviation for "logical language". This has been thought to make it suitable for human-computer communication, which led Robert A. Heinlein to mention the language in his science fiction novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, and as a fully fledged computer language in The Number of the Beast."

So maybe some day people will be writing software using Lojban as the coding language via a human-computer-interface (USB 4.0 presumably )

I cannot think of Lojban without thinking of this xkcd cartoon

Ha ha ha ha! That was hilarious 1Guy1, I almost started laughing out loud at university!

I think that relates to the common perception that people don't like Esperanto et cetera because as they see it, they would only be able to talk to other Esperantists (which, as indicated by the recent Danny Phantom thread, can be perceived to be geeky in that limited aspect of pop-culture...)

And Ironchef, your remarks about using Lojban as a programming interface (via USB 4.0 ) makes me wonder if yev seen the Ghost in the Shell anime series (which deals with a similar concept, with humans being hooked to the 'net' via their cyberbrains). Actually, its a fairly popular science fiction theme come to think of it, I can only think of G.I.T.S though (not the movie though, that didn't delve deep enough into the original comic plotline).

ceigered:
Toki Pona is unique in itself, unlike Interlingua and Ido the purpose is a bit different, more intended for simple and easy communication and the effects on the speaker (those latter two have always been intended as International Languages to some extent). Admittedly, Lojban is also unique as it has a different purpose, to be precise and neutral to an extent which casts shadows on Esperanto - the problem with that though is that it has a flow and grammar which can often scare off learners such as myself (I think though my biggest problem with it is that it resembles a programming language too much, which for me is frustrating because I can't make programs out of it!)

I think Toki Pona's uniqueness is what most draws me to it. When I first looked into conlangs a few months ago, I considered learning Interlingua at first. But I soon learned that it doesn't have many speakers.So obviously Esperanto was next in line. Obviously, Esperanto is a very nice language, but I don't think it's too far from many other IAL, from a linguistic perspective. I would learn any of the other Latin-based IALs if they were as popular or more popular than Esperanto. Perhaps part of the reason other IALs haven't really taken off is simply because Esperanto was already established when they came around.

Also, I do believe Esperanto has a bit of a soul to it. Other IALs seem more focused on the language than the people who use it. They seem kind of cold and scientific next to Esperanto. We humans don't like to just communicate -- we like to say what we mean.

Now Toki Pona is on a whole other plane. I am interested in "simple living" so naturally TP fits in nicely. I've been reading a bit about plain religious groups like Quakerism, Shakerism and the Amish. And it's interesting to note that all three advocate(d) simple words/speech. I'm interested to see if the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has any weight to it.

PS I was thinking of buying that book promised on the Toki Pona website for sometime in 2009. Even if I never really "learn" the language, it would be a neat little thing to have.

PPS I love xkcd, and I do the same thing Guy.

ceigered:And Ironchef, your remarks about using Lojban as a programming interface (via USB 4.0 ) makes me wonder if yev seen the Ghost in the Shell anime series ...

I'm afraid my exposure to Anime/Manga have been limited but I have heard of the series you speak of. The classic example of what we may one day take for granted in human-computer-interfacing was in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, when Scotty (having traveled back in time to 1980s Earth) picks up a computer mouse and tries talking to the computer much to the bewilderment of the computer techs. Although the advances we have made in AI, voice recognition etc are great, we've a long way to go before we can talk freely to computers Star Trek style; or until computers can program themselves.

jan aleksan:Other example: chidí naaʼnaʼí beeʼeldǫǫhtsoh bikááʼ dah naaznilígíí: « Tank » (Mil.). Literally:
car+crawl on something (caterpillar tracks): tracked vehicle
+make explosion with+big: canon
+on + they sit down: smthing used to sit

Alek, thank you for the Navajo example above. That helps to clarify the point I was making earlier; that languages can express anything but some have direct concept words and others have to make up words. I am sure that Navajo has words that would take 2 lines to explain in English. It's all about what's relevant to the people speaking the language.