how are you using "vi" in english ...
door jeckle, 13 mei 2009
Berichten: 35
Taal: English
jchthys (Profiel tonen) 13 mei 2009 17:18:55
KoLonJaNo (Profiel tonen) 13 mei 2009 17:59:41
jchthys:I think that “ci” has never been in common usage, but may have been described by Zamenhof in pre-Fundamento (?)The pronoun ci is in the Fundamento de Esperanto.
It appears in Ekzercaro § 16, 2:
Ci skribas (anstataŭ „ci” oni uzas ordinare „vi”).
In the Universala Vortaro you can find:
ci tu, toi, | thou | du | ты | ty.
and
ci'a ton, ta | thy, thine | dein | твой | twój.
But it doesn't appear among the personal pronouns (rule #5) in any of the five grammars.
Kolonjano
Miland (Profiel tonen) 13 mei 2009 20:20:52
It appeared in lesson 2 of the Linguaphone Esperanto course made around 1930 with recordings by Edmond Privat. It merited a remark at the end of para 45 of Kalocsay and Waringhien's Plena Analiza Gramatiko, which however immediately cited Zamenhof's remark above. Butler's Step by step mentioned it in para 521, and even spoke of it favourably, but it did not appear in Teach Yourself Esperanto.
PMEG therefore sums up the situation nicely.
darkweasel (Profiel tonen) 14 mei 2009 11:23:57
However, it's just not suitable for common use, as different cultures have different standards of using these forms, which would make Esperanto as an intercultural language useless. (Doesn't Ido have such forms?)
tiberius (Profiel tonen) 14 mei 2009 13:38:18
jeckle:Hi,English doesn't have a standard second person singular plural distinction. Thou (which is related to German Du) used to be the singular pronoun, and ye was the plural. English developed a formality distinction like french, and thou was slowly religated to use in religious contexts where it was used to express solidarity and closeness (with God and other people). I think this latter use is how Ci is most often used.
in the german thread we translate "La Vorto De Tago". We had a sentence which wasn't easy/unpossible to translate correctly:
Ne timu sketi sur la glacio, mi helpos vin ne fali.
I try to translate this to english:
Don't be afraid to skate on ice, I will help you not to fall.
Hopefully this is translated correctly in this way.
But I remarked that "vi" might be one person or these could be several. In german we have words to differ between these two situations.
There are "du" for "you", what means one person. And "ihr" for your other "you", what means several persons.
Zamenhoff took these pronouns from the english grammar, so I thought here is the right place to place my question:
How would you build this sentence in english if you want to be sure to promise your help to only one person (perhaps this person is part of a crowd)? And how would you build the sentence if you promises your help to the whole crowd.
Best Regards jeckle
I however, use it as a singular with vi in the plural.
Southern american english has you in the singular and y'all (or yall) in the plural). Since i'm used to distinguishing number in the second person in English, I find it odd that esperanto formally lacks this.
jchthys (Profiel tonen) 14 mei 2009 14:33:59
tiberius:English doesn't have a standard second person singular plural distinction. Thou (which is related to German Du) used to be the singular pronoun, and ye was the plural. English developed a formality distinction like french, and thou was slowly religated to use in religious contexts where it was used to express solidarity and closeness (with God and other people). I think this latter use is how Ci is most often used.I believe that it is not the felt connotations of “thou” that brought it into liturgical use.
William Tyndale, the first to translate the Bible into Modern English, used “thou” and “ye” regardless of connotation so as to precisely translate the distinction in Hebrew and Greek—a practice which continued in other translations, most notably the KJV (which remained standard for almost three hundred years).
Later translations, such as RSV, retained “thou” as a mark of respect since it had remained in English translations of the Bible, so that it acquired a connotation exactly opposite of its original. (It used to be an insult to strangers: “I thou thee, thou traitor!”—attr. Sir Edward Coke insulting Raleigh)
That’s my line of thinking. (See the Wikipedia article on Thou.)
erinja (Profiel tonen) 15 mei 2009 01:34:51
I know why some people want it but I think Esperanto is better off without it. The way that some cultures use the singular and plural strictly to show number, and how other cultures use it to show politeness as well - these cultural differences get confusing when you have lots of people from different cultures speaking the same language. For me, it is not easy to decide when to use singular or plural you in languages that include it. I am afraid of treating someone too casually, or being too formal with them, since I don't fully understand the culture behind when you use which word (and since this also varies by the language, so you have to learn it again for each new language you learn)
ceigered (Profiel tonen) 15 mei 2009 01:51:30
Because some people say 'we' referring to just themselves in rare cases and it still makes sense (although it's hard not to go 'no, just you' and smile).
Mmm.. can't wait to experiment on this concept
Rogir (Profiel tonen) 16 mei 2009 21:15:37
jchthys (Profiel tonen) 17 mei 2009 01:06:23
Rogir:There are probably some languages that already don't make that distinction. Not that I'd immediately know which ones.toki pona
