Mesaĝoj: 16
Lingvo: English
cafaristeir (Montri la profilon) 2009-junio-19 10:00:07
Sellamat Ceigered !
Well, you're right; Sambahsa and Esperanto are based on different rationales; making a comparison is not always adapted.
When I started Sambahsa (nearly 10 years ago), I wanted something more neutrals than the most known conlangs. I don't mean that Romance must be completely banned, but the basic words should not be obligatorily romance (la, le, de, deve....). As IE did neither know "le/the" nor "de/of", I had to figure out how it could have further developed ! Likewise, the basic verbs are from various west-IE languages, not only from Romance.
Nevertheless, I suppose that at least one third of Sambahsa's vocabulary is Romance. I'm not against Romance, but I take it when it's really international (often technical and scientifical vocabulary).
Of course, a mere blend of Esperanto and Sambahsa is hard to imagine. But Sambahsa behaves like an IE language, and thus can make compounds as easily as Esperanto does.
I think the acceptance of people towards an auxlang does not depend only on absolute simplicity, but rather on comparison with the modern languages used today for international communication (mostly English, and Spanish, French, Russian, Arabic). Therefore, a new auxlang must be able to stand side by side with one of these languages without repelling people because of its artificial outlook.
Thus, I took my inspiration from Western Europe for the simplification and modernization of old IE into Sambahsa. Nevertheless, its vocabulary sources extend far more eastwards. I don't have a special theory about West-European simplification; more languages are spoken in closer contact in Eastern Europe, but that did not necessarily lead to their simplification.
"Tib doco" (or "doco tib") is "I teach to you" (It ressembles a lot Latin "te doceo"). "o" is an ending for 1° person singular Present. "tib" is the dative "to thee". Old IE languages used a double accusative after the verb for "to teach", and it is still the case with German "lehren". On the contrary, Sambahsa follows a logical pattern
excerpt from the English grammar):
"Remember that most verbs trigger first the accusative and secondly the dative, the exceptions being the verbs which need “positional anchors” (ex: arrive ad = “to arrive at”) and verbs that can introduce an indirect speech. Then, the person object of the narration is at the dative.
Ex: Is mi antwehrdt (od is wois neid de to) = “He answers to me (that he knew nothing about this)"
You can see here how Sambahsa unites the necessity of auxlang learning with IE roots ("tib" from IE *tebhey being cognate with Latin "tibi", Russian "tebe").
But you were right with "doce" (pronounced [dots]) since it is the infintive.
Tib vanscho un khauris dien "downunder" !
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
Well, you're right; Sambahsa and Esperanto are based on different rationales; making a comparison is not always adapted.
When I started Sambahsa (nearly 10 years ago), I wanted something more neutrals than the most known conlangs. I don't mean that Romance must be completely banned, but the basic words should not be obligatorily romance (la, le, de, deve....). As IE did neither know "le/the" nor "de/of", I had to figure out how it could have further developed ! Likewise, the basic verbs are from various west-IE languages, not only from Romance.
Nevertheless, I suppose that at least one third of Sambahsa's vocabulary is Romance. I'm not against Romance, but I take it when it's really international (often technical and scientifical vocabulary).
Of course, a mere blend of Esperanto and Sambahsa is hard to imagine. But Sambahsa behaves like an IE language, and thus can make compounds as easily as Esperanto does.
I think the acceptance of people towards an auxlang does not depend only on absolute simplicity, but rather on comparison with the modern languages used today for international communication (mostly English, and Spanish, French, Russian, Arabic). Therefore, a new auxlang must be able to stand side by side with one of these languages without repelling people because of its artificial outlook.
Thus, I took my inspiration from Western Europe for the simplification and modernization of old IE into Sambahsa. Nevertheless, its vocabulary sources extend far more eastwards. I don't have a special theory about West-European simplification; more languages are spoken in closer contact in Eastern Europe, but that did not necessarily lead to their simplification.
"Tib doco" (or "doco tib") is "I teach to you" (It ressembles a lot Latin "te doceo"). "o" is an ending for 1° person singular Present. "tib" is the dative "to thee". Old IE languages used a double accusative after the verb for "to teach", and it is still the case with German "lehren". On the contrary, Sambahsa follows a logical pattern
excerpt from the English grammar): "Remember that most verbs trigger first the accusative and secondly the dative, the exceptions being the verbs which need “positional anchors” (ex: arrive ad = “to arrive at”) and verbs that can introduce an indirect speech. Then, the person object of the narration is at the dative.
Ex: Is mi antwehrdt (od is wois neid de to) = “He answers to me (that he knew nothing about this)"
You can see here how Sambahsa unites the necessity of auxlang learning with IE roots ("tib" from IE *tebhey being cognate with Latin "tibi", Russian "tebe").
But you were right with "doce" (pronounced [dots]) since it is the infintive.
Tib vanscho un khauris dien "downunder" !
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-junio-20 07:21:37
Hey Olivier,
I think I get the rational of Sambahsa more now, even if it doesn't quite fit my conlanging-methods
I don't quite get the dative vs. accusative object of the "doce" sentence though, would it be right in saying that "doce sib" is literally "to teach to one's self' (is 'sib' correct?) however translates more to "teach yourself" (or, if you speak EO, "intrui sin")?
The way you've tried to make the language look natural in order to not repel anyone does seem like an interesting and most likely effective way of strengthening a conlangs appeal and reach.
And it didn't occur to me when writing that there is indeed many Eastern European languages within close range of eachother, but if I may add to the table, so to speak, a large majority of them are Slavic and therefore retain similar features, while in the west there are 2 different subfamilies of languages - would this perhaps of had any influence on the simplification of Western languages? As you can probably tell this is something of interest to me
"Tib vanscho un khauris dien "downunder" - Sorry but what does this mean?
"to you 'vanscho' an 'khauris' into downunder"? My apologies if I just slaughtered your wonderful language ha ha
I think I get the rational of Sambahsa more now, even if it doesn't quite fit my conlanging-methods
I don't quite get the dative vs. accusative object of the "doce" sentence though, would it be right in saying that "doce sib" is literally "to teach to one's self' (is 'sib' correct?) however translates more to "teach yourself" (or, if you speak EO, "intrui sin")?
The way you've tried to make the language look natural in order to not repel anyone does seem like an interesting and most likely effective way of strengthening a conlangs appeal and reach.
And it didn't occur to me when writing that there is indeed many Eastern European languages within close range of eachother, but if I may add to the table, so to speak, a large majority of them are Slavic and therefore retain similar features, while in the west there are 2 different subfamilies of languages - would this perhaps of had any influence on the simplification of Western languages? As you can probably tell this is something of interest to me
"Tib vanscho un khauris dien "downunder" - Sorry but what does this mean?
"to you 'vanscho' an 'khauris' into downunder"? My apologies if I just slaughtered your wonderful language ha ha
cafaristeir (Montri la profilon) 2009-junio-20 11:38:40
Sellamat Christian !
"Doce sib" is correct and really means "to teach to oneself"; in the full (French) grammar, I've stated that, theoretically, "se/sib" could be used at all persons as the reflexive pronoun. It was already the case in IE and the Slavs still do this. At the imperative 2° singular, the adding of "e" is facultative; thus "doce sib !"could be understood as "teach to thyself!", but this would sound quite old-fashioned.
Esp. "sin intrui" seems to be inspired by French "s'instruire" ("se" being a direct object = accusative); it means more "to educate oneself" than "to teach oneself".
I've tried to device a simple system for determining the case triggered by verbs (this issue concerns indeed all conlangs). Except for spatial verbs, accusative must precede dative; For example, in French we say "résister au vent" (Lit: "resist to the wind") but in English, it's "resist the wind". As accusative comes first, I'll choose the English way for Sambahsa "resiste id wind".
In Eastern Europe, the Slavic group is the most important, but it's far from being the only one. Though Lithuanian was surrounded by Slavs and Germans, it has remained quite a conservative language. The same can apply to Slovene, surrounded by Italian, German, Hungarian and Croatian.
To try to answer your question, the "shortening" of Western Europe languages (indeed, this applies to English and French) may be due to the fact that, at different times of their histories, France and England were ruled by foreigners (Normands in England, Franks in France) who had difficulties to pronounce properly the language of the natives.
"Vansch" means "wish" (Cf; Netherlandic "wensen", German "wünschen", sanskrit "vâNch") and "khauris" is "pleasant" (cf. Old Greek "kharieis" like in "charism"; Russian "khorosho" = "well", and someone told me it sounded a little like "hao" = "good" in Mandarin).
When you're ready, come on the Sambahsa google group for exercises!
Now you can understand:
Tib vanscho un khauris sabd in Australia !
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
"Doce sib" is correct and really means "to teach to oneself"; in the full (French) grammar, I've stated that, theoretically, "se/sib" could be used at all persons as the reflexive pronoun. It was already the case in IE and the Slavs still do this. At the imperative 2° singular, the adding of "e" is facultative; thus "doce sib !"could be understood as "teach to thyself!", but this would sound quite old-fashioned.
Esp. "sin intrui" seems to be inspired by French "s'instruire" ("se" being a direct object = accusative); it means more "to educate oneself" than "to teach oneself".
I've tried to device a simple system for determining the case triggered by verbs (this issue concerns indeed all conlangs). Except for spatial verbs, accusative must precede dative; For example, in French we say "résister au vent" (Lit: "resist to the wind") but in English, it's "resist the wind". As accusative comes first, I'll choose the English way for Sambahsa "resiste id wind".
In Eastern Europe, the Slavic group is the most important, but it's far from being the only one. Though Lithuanian was surrounded by Slavs and Germans, it has remained quite a conservative language. The same can apply to Slovene, surrounded by Italian, German, Hungarian and Croatian.
To try to answer your question, the "shortening" of Western Europe languages (indeed, this applies to English and French) may be due to the fact that, at different times of their histories, France and England were ruled by foreigners (Normands in England, Franks in France) who had difficulties to pronounce properly the language of the natives.
"Vansch" means "wish" (Cf; Netherlandic "wensen", German "wünschen", sanskrit "vâNch") and "khauris" is "pleasant" (cf. Old Greek "kharieis" like in "charism"; Russian "khorosho" = "well", and someone told me it sounded a little like "hao" = "good" in Mandarin).
When you're ready, come on the Sambahsa google group for exercises!
Now you can understand:
Tib vanscho un khauris sabd in Australia !
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2009-junio-20 12:54:45
cafaristeir:Tib vanscho un khauris sabd in Australia !Ah I think I get how that sentence works now
Thanks for clearing that up - yes I don't think "sin instrui" is the preferred way of saying 'to teach oneself' in Esperanto (rather I think "lerni" is preferred, e.g. mi lernas Sambasan lingvon).
Nonetheless I shall go look at the wiki and google group a bit more to save this poor Esperanto forum from having a discussion about an entirely different language in it
Vanscho tib un khauris dien (sabd today?) in France
cafaristeir (Montri la profilon) 2009-junio-22 08:08:10
Sellamat Christian !
You wrote:
Vanscho tib un khauris dien (sabd today?) in France
Very good !
OK, everybody willing to learn some sambahsa is welcome at:
http://groups.google.com/group/sambahsa-mundialect
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
You wrote:
Vanscho tib un khauris dien (sabd today?) in France
Very good !
OK, everybody willing to learn some sambahsa is welcome at:
http://groups.google.com/group/sambahsa-mundialect
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
cafaristeir (Montri la profilon) 2009-septembro-12 19:22:34
Sellamat quantims !
Excuse me, I've just realized that the right url of my website is:
http://www.sambahsa.pbworks.com/
(I had forgotten the three w's !)
Olivier
Excuse me, I've just realized that the right url of my website is:
http://www.sambahsa.pbworks.com/
(I had forgotten the three w's !)
Olivier