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YES I WAS RIGHT!

viết bởi ceigered, Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

Tin nhắn: 20

Nội dung: English

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 19:33:48 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

Once again, a late night, a hyper uni student and the fact that polls are easy to make in lernu! forums are combined.

But, you may be wondering what in heaven's name I am on about up in the topic of this thread.

Rigardu la dosieron ridulo.gif

Yes, that's right lernu has used 'dankon' in quite a unique way ridulo.gif

[quote=color=green]lernu![/color]]
Subtenu lernu!
lernu! funkcias dank' al via subteno.[/quote]Which is the way I used to say 'dankon' until my style was viciously and utterly pounced upon, torn up, crushed in my face and most importantly cramped by the evil lernu forum members... For shame!
(yes I am intentionally being overly dramatic, no need to feel defensive lango.gif)

But, on a more serious note, what are people's thoughts toward this? I personally think that it looks ok and should be komprenebla to anyone who has had at least 5 minutes worth of learning Esperanto (unless they're reading their phrasebook backwards), but I was told (by whom? how should I know?) that it wasn't very good. So what's your opinions? Would this be regarded as an error by lernu, or is it less black and white and more just completely grey (like my monitor goes once a day)?

(of course, all of my risqué comments are purely in good humour, as per usual, so don't feel threatened or uncomfortable)

mnlg (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:41:30 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

"dank' al" is a well known form in Esperanto. In general, it is not considered to be a mistake. Technically it is, because you can only omit the last vowel if the word in question is a noun or "la" (outside of poetry, that is).

However, "dank' al" is definitely here to stay. It might happen that it will one day fall out of use, but I don't see that in the near future. Personally I do not care much for it, but I will concede that it looks less bulky than "malmalgraŭ" okulumo.gif

Of course you can avoid it in your own Esperanto, or use it without the vowel omission.

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:49:54 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

Dank' al (as I see mnlg has already pointed out) is a standard Esperanto short form. PMEG certainly allows it. Zamenhof used it many times, as you will find if you put it in tekstaro, a very useful internet Esperanto text searching facility.

Concerning your 'poll', I didn't choose any option, but I asked myself: who would use any of the first three alternatives, given that an annoyed neighbour might well use the fourth?* One possibility, not the only one, may be a belulino who finds out that you won a large amount in a lottery..

* One response to which might be, for example 'Ej, ĉu ankaŭ vi estas esperantisto? Mirinde!'

jchthys (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:20:10 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

I kind of like the back-formation graŭ, but I think dank’ al is the best compromise. Zamenhof uses it sixteen times in his short work «Esenco kaj estonteco de la ideo de lingvo internacio».

Further, I think that it’s not just nouns that may lose its final vowel o. I think I remember reading somewhere that it the word is an adjective root (e.g. grand’) it denotes an adjective.

mnlg (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:41:47 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

jchthys:I kind of like the back-formation graŭ
I have known it for quite a while (actually, I thought it up by myself, and only later I found out that it had been already invented. I was surprised when I was told that it wasn't official!), but I'd say that it will take a long while to make it into the mainstream language, if ever.
but I think dank’ al is the best compromise.
Actually a much more regular choice would be dankal. It would mean the same, with the added benefit that it is grammatically sound. I seem to recall an Italian Esperanto speaker discussing this form at length on a forum somewhere, to gather more attention and acceptance. I liked the idea, but I think that it will be very hard to discard the traditional "dank' al".
Further, I think that it’s not just nouns that may lose its final vowel o. I think I remember reading somewhere that it the word is an adjective root (e.g. grand’) it denotes an adjective.
I admit I never heard of that. I do not have any official grammar at hand, so I cannot check it. I am not convinced though. Unless you are talking about poetry; such rules are much more relaxed there.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:15:38 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

jchthys:Further, I think that it’s not just nouns that may lose its final vowel o. I think I remember reading somewhere that it the word is an adjective root (e.g. grand’) it denotes an adjective.
If I saw grand' I'd assume it was an elided form of grando meaning "size" rather than "big", despite the fact grand is an adjectivial root. I don't really see how it could work for more than 1 part of speech category as you'd never know what the word meant.

Rule 16 of the Fundamento mentions the possibility of dropping the final o from nouns and a from la but nothing about other categories, so I'd be dubious of anyone advising you of its permissibility.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:27:34 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

Just to add to the above, PMEG appears to dismiss the idea too:
Forlaso de A-finaĵoj «
Aperis la ideo, ke oni povus ellasi ankaŭ A-finaĵojn, sed ke oni tiam ne uzus apostrofon: diligenta knabo → *diligent knabo*, sincera koro → *sincer koro* (la ekzemploj estas de K. KALOCSAY en “Lingvo Stilo Formo”). Forlaso de A-finaĵoj tamen tute ne estas ebla en Esperanto, ĉu kun apostrofo, ĉu sen apostrofo.

jchthys (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:51:07 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

Well, I disagree…it doesn’t seem to make sense that an adjective root must be used as a noun. Anyway, I don’t use clipped forms myself, but then why are there so-called adjective roots, noun roots and verb roots if they’re really all nouns when stripped? senkulpa.gif

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 23:50:12 Ngày 30 tháng 6 năm 2009

jchthys:it doesn’t seem to make sense that an adjective root must be used as a noun.

why are there so-called adjective roots, noun roots and verb roots if they’re really all nouns when stripped?
This isn't what I'm saying.

If you're going to allow elision for more than one part of speech category then there has to be a way of determining what kind of word had its final vowel dropped. Otherwise the word is practically meaningless, or at the very best highly ambiguous. Just because grand is an adjective root doesn't mean you can assume it was actually used as an adjective, since any root in theory can freely function as any other part of speech. What if I was elliding grando (not because I HAVE to, but because I simply want to)? How would you know?

The only way around it that I can see would be kludgey workarounds with suffixes, so grandec' to show an elided noun meaning "size". To me that seems pretty ridiculous though. Am I supposed to keep in mind how I'm going to make it clear that this is a noun I'm elliding here just because the root is inherantly of a different class? More headache than it's worth I'd say.

Of course I have no way of knowing, but I suspect it's at least partly for this reason Bertilo states Forlaso de A-finaĵoj tamen tute ne estas ebla en Esperanto.

andogigi (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 02:40:44 Ngày 01 tháng 7 năm 2009

Right now, I'm in correspondence with a komencanto who started learning Esperanto 3 days ago. (Not in this forum, in another one) Anyway, she used "dank'al" in one of her e-mails and she didn't learn it from me. Obviously, it has taken hold.

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