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Kwishura

Derivation from pronouns

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Ubutumwa 25

ururimi: English

Oŝo-Jabe (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 00:38:53

What would 'vio' and 'vii' mean? Would 'vio' just be a longer way of saying 'vi'? Would 'vii' mean 'to be yours' or 'to be like you'?

If 'vio' is just a longer way of saying 'vi', is it then theoretically possible to make distinctions like 'iliino' in translations from languages where that kind of distinction is made?

RiotNrrd (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 01:23:43

Not sure if it's allowed, although I haven't found any strictures against it.

If allowed, I imagine that "vio" would not mean the same thing as "vi", as "vio" would be a noun whereas "vi" is already defined as a pronoun. "The you of yesterday isn't the you of today" is an example of how it might be used. You don't see that usage much in English, and I certainly haven't seen it in Esperanto.

"Vii" perhaps would mean "to be you", as in "To be you would be wonderful!"

All supposition. I have never seen the usage of these words or any mention of them in my textbooks.

mnlg (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 06:35:15

I once tentatively used 'vien' to mean 'towards you'. I was still a beginner at the time. A friend of mine, who was more of an expert, told me it was an interesting idea, so I concluded that it was an allowed form in the grammar (at least according to him!). However with time I changed to 'ale al vi'.

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 08:55:13

RiotNrrd:If allowed, I imagine that "vio" would not mean the same thing as "vi", as "vio" would be a noun whereas "vi" is already defined as a pronoun
However, depending on what linguistic background you have, there shouldn't be a difference. In some languages pronouns are treated identically as nouns by even accepting adjectives naturally (unlike English where it is apparently different, or at least according to the original rules).

mnlg (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 09:36:02

ceigered:In some languages pronouns are treated identically as nouns by even accepting adjectives naturally
That would be Italian among others. We call them 'pronominal adjectives'. The only English equivalent I can remember off hand is 'The Reds', the way Liverpool FC fans call their team okulumo.gif

Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 12:33:38

I've never seen or used these forms, but I can think of two possibilities in theory:
(a) 'I don't want to be you'. Mi ne volas vii. I would prefer Mi ne volas esti vi.
(b) 'The world isn't ready for another you.' La mondo ne pretas por alia vio. I myself would put this La mondo ne estas preta por alia vi.

In my view they should be regarded as incorrect or at least doubtful. PMEG refers to pronouns as vortetoj, suggesting that they are not proper roots that can take any endings apart from -a.

jchthys (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 13:50:27

I think that in your second example vio is a very good and useful form.

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 14:05:56

Interestingly, there are some results for this in Tekstaro with the search string \\b(mi|vi|li|ŝi|ili|ni)o\\b

Tekstaro:
1 trovo en Lingvistikaj aspektoj de Esperanto
..i trovas kvar diversajn rusajn tradukojn: du (déverj, ĵúrin) respondas al (i) supre, depende ĉu la ‘mio’ estas viro aŭ virino, tria (zjatj) respondas al (ii) supre, kaj la kvara (svoják) aludas al la e..

1 trovo en Mortula ŝipo
..no sumiĝis por mi la mondpercepto kaj mia konscio pri mia persono. Mi estis estingita. Anstataŭ mia mio estis nenio alia ol dekunua ĝis la dekoka kaj dudek tria ĝis la sesa. Du nedireble veaj krioj ent..

1 trovoj en La Ondo de Esperanto
..owan Williams, la nova anglikana ĉefepiskopo, kiu multe verkis pri dudekjarcenta rusa teologio; “la mio kiu sen perforto kaj sen maltrankvilo rilatas” nomeblas animo, invitas, fidas nekonaton, forestan..
Vio isn't there but I guess there's no reason it couldn't work the same way.

Miland (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 16:14:35

tommjames:..tekstaro..
Mio in these examples appears to be equivalent to an inner 'self'. We already have memo for that. I'm not sure that using memo instead of mio in these examples would change the meaning.

tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Mukakaro 2009 16:27:21

Miland:
tommjames:..tekstaro..
Mio in these examples appears to be equivalent to an inner 'self'. We already have memo for that. I'm not sure that using memo instead of mio in these examples would change the meaning.
True, however memo by itself doesn't mean any particular person's self, so you'd have to say mia memo if it was for yourself (unless the context already made it clear who's self you mean), and then you have to ask if you're going to use the pronoun mi anyway why not just tag an o on the end and use that more compact form.

That's not to say I like mio all that much. Even if it is logically meaningful, it's infrequency may well make mia memo or mi mem a better alternative.

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