Wpisy: 33
Język: English
Miland (Pokaż profil) 7 sierpnia 2009, 15:27:10
In my view, whether we need such a new verb is debatable, because in the places where it is used, jen could be placed earlier, or estas might do instead for introducing a list.
tommjames (Pokaż profil) 7 sierpnia 2009, 16:26:04
Miland:whether we need such a new verb is debatableI'm inclined to agree, inasmuch as we can already express the idea of "being in the following way" with other words, and as such one might hold that it's pointless to have another form for the same thing. However I personally see no compelling reason jen ought to be denied its right to function as a verb as other interjections can (jesi, nei, adiaŭi, bisi spring to mind). That would seem to me a rather arbitrary constraint, given the logic of "there are already other ways to do this" could be applied to a vast number of roots capable of functioning outside of their base morphological class, in line with the general "spirit of Esperanto".
That said, if there's something confusing or logically unsound about jenas then I'd be all for discouraging its usage. All I'd say is every example I've seen and heard of it has been quite clear.
russ (Pokaż profil) 8 sierpnia 2009, 20:19:00
Miland:(Jeno BTW could also cause confusion with Japanese currency, since jeno is also defined in PIV 2005 as eno).Note that in PIV, "jeno = eno" means that "eno" is the preferred form. I don't recall seeing "jeno" used in practice for the Japanese currency; I have seen "eno" recently in articles in Monato.
(The equals sign is unfortunately misleading, I think, since unless one reads the introduction to PIV, one might reasonably assume that it means the 2 words are equivalent, with no reason to prefer one or the other.)
Miland (Pokaż profil) 8 sierpnia 2009, 22:08:04
Personally I am inclined to prefer jeno as being closer to 'yen', but the matter may be not that important.
erinja (Pokaż profil) 18 sierpnia 2009, 16:23:45
The word "jeno" is almost certainly based on the English word "yen" (mirrored in other European languages, so this is hardly an issue limited to English). However, the word is NOT pronounced like "yen" in Japanese, but like "en". The English word "yen" (and other Western equivalents) is based on an old-fashioned pronunciation of the Japanese word, which morphed from the sound "yen" into the sound "en" long before Esperanto was even invented. Japanese people prefer "eno", obviously, because it more closely reflects what they call their currency in their native language [which is "en", to beat a dead horse].
Miland (Pokaż profil) 18 sierpnia 2009, 19:17:41
A wiki article indicates that, when the original pronunciation "yen" became "en" in Japan between the 16th and 18th centuries, it did not do so unanimously; some regions retained the pronunciation "yen". That would explain why a minority of Japanese today would use jeno. In the history of Esperanto another question is whether the use of jeno had become well established before the use of eno became prevalent as a result of its use by Japanese Esperantists. If so, both forms would be legitimate. I just found uses of jenoj in a Japanese Esperanto blog and a webpage connected with the 92nd UK by the Japanese Esperanto junularo. Many others can be found by googling "kotizo jenoj".
russ (Pokaż profil) 18 sierpnia 2009, 23:05:12
Miland:Many others can be found by googling "kotizo jenoj".A clever idea, but google is outsmarting me by returning various forms of "jen" in the main sense (e.g. "la jenaj opcioj" etc), not as Japanese currency. The vast majority seem to be that way; I find very few that are actually using "jeno" for the currency.
Meanwhile, searching "kotizo enoj" returns many hits that are about the currency.
In my personal experience, both Japanese and non-Japanese Esperantists overwhelmingly use "eno".
Searching "jenoj" en tekstaro.com gives only 1 hit; searching " enoj" gives 39 (all 40 about the currency).
You can argue about history and about both being used etc, but to me it seems about like saying that it's equally good to use "ĥino" and "ĉino" just because "ĥino" was used in the early period (until people realized Zamenhof brain-farted and that "ĥino" sounds like the Polish word but not like most international words for Chinese).
mnlg (Pokaż profil) 19 sierpnia 2009, 07:37:36
erinja:Japanese people prefer "eno", obviously, because it more closely reflects what they call their currency in their native language [which is "en", to beat a dead horse].As a sidenote, I have been told that, mostly in Tōkyō, Japanese might occasionally use yen as well, to give themselves a "westerner" feel.
Miland (Pokaż profil) 19 sierpnia 2009, 09:24:14
russ:..people realized Zamenhof brain-f...Remember that children are reading this. Not to mention that to ascribe such a thing to Zamenhof is also an indication of outlook towards la majstro.
As I see it, ĥina and ĉina are both legitimate; both are found in Wells without qualification. The first is found in FK, of course, but also later; William Auld used the older form. Ĉinujo and Ĥinujo were given as alternatives in Kalocsay and Waringhien's Plena Analiza Gramatiko (para. 343 III A (b)). It is just that the latter has become prevalent as a result of usage, and therefore PIV 2005's marking the first as an old form should be viewed as a matter of prevalent usage raher than legitimacy.
Because of Westernisation as well as history, the fate of jeno may be a bit more uncertain. I note that the Japanese haven't replace the Y or JPY symbols.
russ (Pokaż profil) 19 sierpnia 2009, 12:04:01
Miland:As I see it, ĥina and ĉina are both legitimate; both are found in Wells without qualification.In the eo-en section, yes, because of course every official eo-word should appear in an eo-en dictionary.
But if you look in the en-eo section for "Chinese" etc, you will find only the (overwhelmingly prevalent and recommended) root "ĉin", not the (archaic) root "ĥin". I would consider that a pretty clear "qualification" or indication or suggestion.
Similarly Benson's en-eo dictionary only gives only "ĉin", not "ĥin".
(Out of curiosity, I just checked several pl-eo dictionaries: both of my modern ones give only "ĉin"; the century-old 1910 dictionary of Grabowski gives only "ĥin".)
It is just that the latter has become prevalent as a result of usage, and therefore PIV 2005's marking the first as an old form should be viewed as a matter of prevalent usage raher than legitimacy.Well, yes, that's rather the point, isn't it? One normally prefers to use the commonly recognized form (especially if it's official), not the archaic form (even if it's official), unless one is intentionally creating a historical effect (e.g. for a historical novel) which would only serve to distract or confuse in ordinary speech.
E.g. do you usually use "rezulto" or "rezultato"?
Because of Westernisation as well as history, the fate of jeno may be a bit more uncertain. I note that the Japanese haven't replace the Y or JPY symbols.I don't share your uncertainty.
The established monetary code JPY seems like a red herring to me; such codes are ultimately just codes, analogous to country codes which don't always closely resemble the country's name. E.g. the standard 3-letter code for Polish currency is PLN, even though the Polish word for their monetary unit is "złoty".
Anyway, in Esperanto "eno" seems pretty evidently prevalent and triumphant over "jeno" to me. But indeed we will see.