შეტყობინებები: 28
ენა: English
Ironchef (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 17:06:02
Your thoughts? Thanks.
Pharoah (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 17:19:31
ceigered (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 18:27:09
I say this because
A) it could get messy if grammatical word endings etc got involved with postal addresses For instance, I wouldn't say 'Caralue's St' or 'Street of Caralue' in English for the street I live on (Caralue St).
B) Esperanto-ising preexisting street names can get a bit tedious. Take for instance words like 'Forest' in English - in EO 'foresto' means absence. I wouldn't translate names either, it's like calling my area 'Ongkaparringa' it's kaurna-to-english translation 'Women's river' (nangkiparringga). Which sounds a bit weird and also disregards the culture of the land (it's unlikely an Esperantujo would just magically appear with new streets and towns, it'd probably be built on preexisting settlements with respect to the original people's culture)
Sorry if that message didn't make sense - I'm feeling very tired now, so I've likely written a whole lot of incomprehensible gibberish above
EDIT: of course, if this esperantujo had always existed or was founded on another planet, then there'd be no problem using any system, as long as all the residents agree.
darkweasel (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 18:57:41
Don't translate street names from other languages. You can add word endings if they're in the plural or accusative. "Park Streeton" (or Park Street-on), for example. If you want you can add a pronunciation guide in brackets, as in "Park Street [Park Strit]".
Personally, I don't even transliterate product names into Esperanto ortography, although many Esperantists do so. Thus, I don't say "Linukso", "Vindozo" and "Makintoŝo", but "Linux", "Windows" and "Macintosh". I believe that they were created only because the x-system conflicts with Linux (making it Linŭ) - and for consistency, "Unikso", "Vindozo", "Makintoŝo" and similar names were created, although I don't know of any other language which transliterates product names into its ortography system. At least not one using the Latin alphabet. Just stay with the original names, that doesn't sound as strange. (Heck, I've even been called "darkvisel".)
@ceigered: You'd just translate "forest" as "arbaro". What would be the problem with that?
qwertz (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 18:58:21
darkweasel:Just stay with the original names, that doesn't sound as strange. (Heck, I've even been called "darkvisel".)And try to name Munich the original German name: München (Very less english nat's will do this due to it's hard pronouncing)
That's remembering me to Australia. If I tried to pronounce a city name with the English pronouncing i.e. Kununurra it was wrong. If I did it the German pronouncing it was wrong. Arrgh. So I took a map and said: "I wanna to go here" and put my finger on it. Surprisly, it did work this way
For me that's one of the hardest tasks learning English. You have to learn every english words pronouncing by itself. That's why I like Esperanto for. Even if a french talks in Esperanto I will understand that. (They have a very special sound. But I like this sound, too.)
Erik
Pharoah (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 19:41:41
For me that's one of the hardest tasks learning English. You have to learn every english words pronouncing by itself.You are right there. I have often thought that English isn't much different from Chinese in this respect. Our words might give a bit of a hint as to how they're supposed to be pronounced, but so do Chinese characters many times (by including a smaller version of a similarly pronounced character).
Rogir (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 20:09:16
Also, Zamenhofstrato would be the most common name.
qwertz (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 20:21:44
Pharoah:I try to figure that out watching english nat' movies using the english main voice and english subtitle. And then - what did s/he say?! Just rewind the movie. Jesus, the subtitle was correct! S/he said that
You are right there. I have often thought that English isn't much different from Chinese in this respect. Our words might give a bit of a hint as to how they're supposed to be pronounced, but so do Chinese characters many times (by including a smaller version of a similarly pronounced character).
Okej, jes I know. You only can recognize what you still know. And mostly you don't take focus/listen to every word. So you expect a context or better you expect a special range of words in this special context. In a face to face situation you are capable to navigate to the proper range of word through asking the other people what isn't clear or if you loose the context "track". In a dvd movie you have to rewind again and again. Until you get it. Or you believe you got it.
Miland (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 17 აგვისტო, 2009 22:29:29
ceigered (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 18 აგვისტო, 2009 07:07:35
darkweasel:@ceigered: You'd just translate "forest" as "arbaro". What would be the problem with that?I guess... I still would just go with 'forest' though, no esperantisation at all
qwertz:That's remembering me to Australia. If I tried to pronounce a city name with the English pronouncing i.e. Kununurra it was wrong. If I did it the German pronouncing it was wrong. Arrgh. So I took a map and said: "I wanna to go here" and put my finger on it. Surprisly, it did work this way.As an Australian, I have no comment on crazy place names . 'Kunanara', said with French vowels instead of English ones, would probably be a good guess, but the truth is many Australians don't even know how to pronounce half of these place names . If we don't know how to spell or pronounce the name, we generally just call the place 'whoop-whoop'.
"Ah hey kev where a you goin ull of a suddin?"
"Ah ta some place out a' whoop-whoop"
"Ah beaut ma'e bring us back a soovenier!"
Maybe esperanto needs a similar convention...
You are right there. I have often thought that English isn't much different from Chinese in this respect. Our words might give a bit of a hint as to how they're supposed to be pronounced, but so do Chinese characters many times (by including a smaller version of a similarly pronounced character).Try learning Danish and try learning Chinese. You'll immediately find Danish pronunciation much easier to guess by spelling. And Danish is approximately as irregular as English pronunciation. Foroese is also similar to English pronunciation in many aspects only they have accent markers. While English does look as if it is highly irregular and gives no hint to the pronunciation, there are some subtle patterns which can make it as easier as any other major European language (and there's the bonus that it is spoken with so many accents that you'll always be right somehow )
Chinese is special in that the written language has no real relation to the spoken language at all. A character can have heaps of different pronunciations, and a spoken word can match heaps of different characters. Of course realistically speakers use the best known/easiest to understand of the characters and pronunciations, but for a learner, it's much harder than English