メッセージ: 88
言語: English
Rohan (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 14:46:38
Greyshades: I don't mind rideti at all as a smaller laugh, but it's just not a smile.
Donniedillon:Because of that I am willing to accept a small laugh as a smile.I might end up sounding a bit preachy, but having read too many messages similar to the ones above, I think it might be worth it reposting an earlier message of mine here:
Rohan:I think that more often than not, the combination of a root and an affix results in a very specific or well-defined entity, whose meaning can still be looked upon as an extension of sorts of the meaning of the original root.Basically, my point is that 'rideto' is not the same as 'eta rido'. Considering them to be the same is what, in my opinion, is evoking such antipathy towards this blameless word.
So, for instance, an 'arbaro' isn't just any collection of trees, but a specific kind; namely, the kind we call a 'forest'. However, 'aro de arboj' could be used for more or less any clump of trees that you might come across. Other examples: homaro, montaro, malsanulejo, necesejo, domego, pafilego (now normally substituted by kanono).
Similarly, a 'rideto' carries a more specific, special meaning than 'eta rido'. It's almost a new idea, which is still grounded in an existing root as best as possible.
horsto:As Rohan explained on the first page of this discussion, the german language uses the same system to build "smile" (lächeln) from laugh (lachen).Well, actually, I was merely conjecturing. I have no idea if 'lächeln' is indeed a diminutive form of 'lachen' or not. It might be pure coincidence that they have somewhat similar forms. A good German etymological dictionary would probably be able to untie this knot more definitively.
jchthys (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 16:13:56
mnlg (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 16:17:42
I am fine with rideti meaning something slightly different to what it suggests. After a while it becomes a habit and you don't think about it much.
To translate "to chuckle" I would use ekridi or mezridi.
tommjames (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 16:29:34
Rohan:It's almost a new idea, which is still grounded in an existing root as best as possible.I think the point is that as far as rideti goes, it wasn't done "as best as possible". As best as possible would have clearly been to have a different root, enabling the expression of both diminutive/amplified laughs AND smiles, all four of which are entirely valid and useful ideas despite the fact some languages like German may not have corresponding words for them. Why did it have to be grounded in the root for laughing, just because laughing happens to entail the act of smiling?
Of course there are other ways to express chuckles, smirks and huge smiles. But it would have been nice to have the ability to use what strike me as the best tools for the job, et and eg. That we have been arbitrarily denied the ability to do so for absolutely no discernible benefit seems to me to be the real thing that's irking people here.
ceigered (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 17:24:07
I'm not sure who I was responding to there, but thought it should be mentioned
mnlg:To translate "to chuckle" I would use ekridi or mezridi.Mi mezridis kiam mi vidis tion
Mezridi is quite a smart word!
But tommjames has more or less stated how I feel, but in the meantime, I'll definitely be using mezridi
Rohan (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 17:54:35
tommjames:As best as possible would have clearly been to have a different root, enabling the expression of both diminutive/amplified laughs AND smiles...Perhaps you're right. 'Rideti' is a historical vestige, and might very well have caused several Idistiĝontoj much mental anguish. Things would understandably have been very different had all the whens and wheres of Esperanto not been what they were.
Maybe the smajlistoj or vejŝavistoj could actually start a campaign to bring their replacement for 'rideti' into popular consciousness. I, for one, would be very interested in observing the reactions and results of such an undertaking.
Rogir (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 18:05:06
RiotNrrd (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 19:24:03
Tidalias:... But as others have pointed out, Esperanto is meant to be logical...No it's not. Who told you that?
Lojban is meant to be logical.
Esperanto is meant to be easy.
While "easy" and "logical" are not mutually exclusive, they aren't the same thing, either (as likely any learner of Lojban can attest).
jchthys (プロフィールを表示) 2009年9月16日 20:07:27
RiotNrrd:Lingua franca nova is meant to be easy.Tidalias:... But as others have pointed out, Esperanto is meant to be logical...No it's not. Who told you that?
Lojban is meant to be logical.
Esperanto is meant to be easy.
While "easy" and "logical" are not mutually exclusive, they aren't the same thing, either (as likely any learner of Lojban can attest).
Esperanto is meant to be both easy and rich.
I feel that (despite certain language’s use of a form of ‘laugh’ for ‘smile’) it would improve the richness of a language to have a separate word.
Whether this is possible to do this effectively in Esperanto is a different issue.