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I can't do it

de Momomomomo, 14 de setembro de 2009

Mensagens: 88

Idioma: English

Momomomomo (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 17:44:53

What can't I do? I can't make myself use rideti. It just doesn't mean smile to me because an eta laugh isn't a smile, it's a chuckle. How else would you describe a chuckle other than a smaller version of a laugh? Smiles also come in sizes, how can you say grin? The only thing that makes sense is ridetegi, and if something and its -et- form are so different that a new word is needed to describe the -eg- of the -et- then how can they be the same thing? Sorry if you think i'm being obnoxious by challenging a word that has been used for so long but it just doesn't make sense.

On the subject of words I never quite got, brakumi - arm-something-action never really did describe with warmth of a hug to me and why can't we use tiam ĉi for now? (though neither of these ever bothered me as much as rideti)

EDIT: just spotted my poll says I though I was odd... senkulpa.gif yeah that's supposed to be it was odd

jchthys (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 17:52:55

Brakumi doesn’t bother me.

As for tiam ĉi, the reason is that the ĉi is kind of optional. I mean, ‘this’ is sort of a more specific form of ‘that’, and so you could really use tiu for both. And ‘here’ is sort of a more specific form of ‘there’, and so you could really use tie for both. But ‘now’ has a lot more to it than just ‘then’, and so we use nun.

As for the rideto thing, I kind of agree. Maybe they thought of smiles differently back then rideto.gif

Rohan (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 18:43:57

I think that more often than not, the combination of a root and an affix results in a very specific or well-defined entity, whose meaning can still be looked upon as an extension of sorts of the meaning of the original root.

So, for instance, an 'arbaro' isn't just any collection of trees, but a specific kind; namely, the kind we call a 'forest'. However, 'aro de arboj' could be used for more or less any clump of trees that you might come across. Other examples: homaro, montaro, malsanulejo, necesejo, domego, pafilego (now normally substituted by kanono).

Similarly, a 'rideto' carries a more specific, special meaning than 'eta rido'. It's almost a new idea, which is still grounded in an existing root as best as possible.

tommjames (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 18:50:59

Momomomomo:Sorry if you think i'm being obnoxious by challenging a word that has been used for so long but it just doesn't make sense.
For what it's worth I agree with you absolutely completely and totally 100% without any reservation whatsoever. I cannot STAND this word, so by all means be as obnoxious as you like.. you'll get nothing but support from me. rideto.gif

Rogir (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 20:53:00

About brakumi: if you've been into the Esperanto community a bit you will notice that -um adds a cosy charm to every word. Kafumi, brakumi, and some that are not suitable for children.

Rohan (Mostrar o perfil) 14 de setembro de 2009 21:45:46

jchthys: Maybe they thought of smiles differently back then rideto.gif
It struck me that in German, 'to laugh' is 'lachen', while 'to smile' is 'lächeln'. Also, in many words to which the suffix '-lein' or '-chen' (the equivalents of '-et') are attached, the stem acquires an umlaut (ä/ö/ü) if it can.

E.g. Hund (Dog) - Hündchen (Little dog); Frau (Woman) - Fräulein (Young woman, 'Miss').

The point being, of course, that 'lächeln' might actually be a diminutive, eta version of 'lachen'. If so, that might 'explain' the 'rationale' behind 'ridi' and 'rideti', German being a language the maestro spoke.

Oŝo-Jabe (Mostrar o perfil) 15 de setembro de 2009 00:22:43

"-et" doesn't mean "little" it means "to a lesser degree." "Eta" picked up the meaning of "malgranda," (possibly because it's a nice small word) but the suffix retains it's original meaning.

A definition of laugh could be: "To mark sudden happiness by widely stretching the mouth, making a characteristic facial expression and accompanying noise."

A smile: "To mark sudden happiness, by stretching the mouth, and making a characteristic facial expression."

Hence, smiling is laughing to a lesser degree, because no noise is made, and the mouth is not stretched as widely.

If you don't like "brakumi" you could also say "ĉirkaŭbraki."

Rohan (Mostrar o perfil) 15 de setembro de 2009 01:03:34

Oŝo-Jabe:"-et" doesn't mean "little" it means "to a lesser degree." "Eta" picked up the meaning of "malgranda," (possibly because it's a nice small word) but the suffix retains it's original meaning.
Eh?

If a verb is the object of discussion, 'to a lesser degree' would make sense. But what of physical objects, for example? A 'libreto' isn't really 'a book to a lesser degree', is it? It's simply a book that's small in size, i.e., a booklet.

Oŝo-Jabe (Mostrar o perfil) 15 de setembro de 2009 01:30:59

Rohan:
Oŝo-Jabe:"-et" doesn't mean "little" it means "to a lesser degree." "Eta" picked up the meaning of "malgranda," (possibly because it's a nice small word) but the suffix retains it's original meaning.
Eh?

If a verb is the object of discussion, 'to a lesser degree' would make sense. But what of physical objects, for example? A 'libreto' isn't really 'a book to a lesser degree', is it? It's simply a book that's small in size, i.e., a booklet.
Okay, my explanation was an oversimplification. A better definition for "-et" that always works is "to a lesser degree, or a smaller (more charming) kind of" The first part works for adjectives, verbs, and adverbs, the second part for nouns (the "more charming" is for cases like "patreto," or "knabineto" where smallness and affection are intended.)

ceigered (Mostrar o perfil) 15 de setembro de 2009 01:51:33

One phrase that always irks me is 'tiam ĉi ridbrakumeti' lango.gif

But in all seriousness I agree with the OP.
And whle eta essentially means smaller (in some form of way, maybe a smaller amount of happiness, I don't know), the next expected step down from a laugh is a chuckle, with smiling covering different actions and possibly different emotions (e.g. laughter = humoured, smile = charmed/content). Maybe 'ridi' was intended to be anywhere from a chuckle to a laugh and 'ridegi' was reserved for the jolliest of fellows, leaving 'rideti' to be the step below the laugh (which is normally either a look of shock/disbelief or a smile, obviously the latter is what it means).

However without another preferred option for saying smile I've had to use 'rideti' regardless of whether it makes sense.

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