글: 19
언어: English
ceigered (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 19일 오후 7:41:41
Could the passive participles be used as verbs, and if so how would they translate?
Cheers
Edit: I should elaborate by adding that I am referring to the passive participles being used independent of a verb, e.g. ati. And could they then be used as nouns, e.g. Ato?
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 20일 오전 10:10:38
nsheppard:I would imagine the obvious meaning would be "esti $WORD-ata/ita/ota" in the manner of other adjectives turned to verbs.Indeed that is correct, you can see those forms in the table on this page.
Although these shortened forms are quite logical they are very rare, and apparently difficult to understand for some people because something like legitos "packs a lot into a single word". I must admit that's something I've never quite understood.. since when have 3 morphemes ever been too much for an Esperantist to handle?
Nevertheless it is what it is. I myself never use these forms, not because I think of them as illogical but because you might make urself sound a bit unusual (although perhaps that's not a bad thing in itself)
ceigered (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 20일 오후 4:26:01
tommjames:Although these shortened forms are quite logical they are very rare, and apparently difficult to understand for some people because something like legitos "packs a lot into a single word". I must admit that's something I've never quite understood.. since when have 3 morphemes ever been too much for an Esperantist to handle?Random stab in the dark, but maybe it's because in most languages people expect those 4 meanings (leg, it, est, os) to be seperated into several differently-ordered analytical components (with 'it-' maybe even being split into a further two), e.g. "I am going to-be read-ed" (although English isn't truely analytical so its more like "I am going to be read"). Very interesting though. Mixing tenses in a single word (itos) does seem to get confusing though, maybe another factor.
Back to what I was going to say, I should elaborate by asking whether the past participles could be used independent of a verb, e.g. "Mi atas ....." (.... = whatever kinda object you'd expect there if it was possible, be it an accusative noun or verb etc).
Cheers anyway for further confirming some thoughts I had
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 20일 오후 4:59:58
ceigered:Back to what I was going to say, I should elaborate by asking whether the past participles could be used independent of a verb, e.g. "Mi atas ....." (.... = whatever kinda object you'd expect there if it was possible, be it an accusative noun or verb etc).You really like stretching the boundaries dont you
. I have only ever once seen a participle suffix used as a verb, a random hit I got in Tekstaro way back when. In La skandalo de Jozefo there is the following:
Jes, nun mi jam certis, ke nepre ontas la fatala momento, kiam ni restos nur duope solaj kaj poste ... damne, mi ne kuraĝis finpensi —
I'd say the meaning of ontas in that sentence is pretty clear ("the fatal moment is upon us", or something to that effect), but I think this kind of thing occupies that area of "fringe" or experimental Esperanto that doesn't really get much traction in the real world, and for that reason alone I'd say you should probably stay clear of it. I guess the thing to remember is there are many things that "could" work in Esperanto, but which are so rarely seen as to be considered avoidable or even "wrong" depending on how dogmatic you want to get.
Ironchef (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 21일 오후 1:39:32
ceigered:Well, I have been described as 'creative' beforeChristian, please do not ever stop being creative or experimental. While you may not always be correct or accepted in the mainstream, your ideas and concepts generate conversation which often overlaps into other fields and areas, all of which I find useful and thought-provoking. One of the things I found "stuffy" when I began learning Esperanto was that so many people like their language carved in stone, set in concrete and abhorred anyone who tried to change things.
Personally, I adhere to the idea that Esperanto has to remain standard for everyone (that is its entire purpose, after all) but I also like the idea of wordplay and mind-expansion; it's often the only way one can learn.
gyrus (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 21일 오후 4:43:40
Ironchef:I completely agree. The stuffy attitudes of some Esperantists makes me wonder why they bothered learning the language in the first place.ceigered:Well, I have been described as 'creative' beforeChristian, please do not ever stop being creative or experimental. While you may not always be correct or accepted in the mainstream, your ideas and concepts generate conversation which often overlaps into other fields and areas, all of which I find useful and thought-provoking. One of the things I found "stuffy" when I began learning Esperanto was that so many people like their language carved in stone, set in concrete and abhorred anyone who tried to change things.
Personally, I adhere to the idea that Esperanto has to remain standard for everyone (that is its entire purpose, after all) but I also like the idea of wordplay and mind-expansion; it's often the only way one can learn.
Pharoah (프로필 보기) 2009년 9월 21일 오후 5:58:43
http://en.lernu.net/komunikado/forumo/temo.php?t=5...
I guess it's more common than I thought
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